CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER <b><font color="red">Spoiler</b></font> In THE AVENGERS?

We know Marvel always like to be ahead of the curve, but did we all miss The Winter Soldier's big twist right in front of us the whole time? It looks like Marvel's malevolent Asgardian god throwing us a hint back in 2012; hit the jump to check it out and throw in your two cents!

Let's get one thing straight, if you haven't seen it yet, I'm about to spoil a large plot point from Captain America: The Winter Soldier. You've been warned.

But now that's out of the way, think back to 2012's The Avengers. I'm focusing on a specific speech of Loki's, the Red Ledger speech, here's the scene for the forgetful:

Or for the lazy, here's the transcribed version, with the most important part in bold:

Can you? Can you wipe out that much red? Drakov's daughter, Sao Paulo, the hospital fire?... Barton told me everything. Your ledger is dripping, it's GUSHING red, and you think saving a man no more virtuous than yourself will change anything? This is the basest sentimentality. This is a child at prayer... PATHETIC! You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!... I won't touch Barton. Not until I make him kill you! Slowly, intimately, in every way he knows you fear! And then he'll wake just long enough to see his good work, and when he screams, I'll split his skull! This is MY bargain, you mewling quim!

Remember the scene now? The last thing to add is what's hapenning during the speech, HERE's the time stamp on the video, here's the image:

Cap uncovers SHIELD's secret stash of Hydra-tech on the Helicarrier before confronting Nick Fury on the topic. At the time I viewed it as nothing more than  some nice directing/cinematography from King Whedon, but now that we've seen the future, things look a bit different...
When the Sentinel of Libery uncovers SHIELD's dirty little secrets Loki says the following, "You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!" The Avengers lie and kill for liers and killers, thinking that they are good, that they are something different... but they aren't, they are part of SHIELD, Hydra is part of SHIELD.

What do you think? Did the antagonistic Asgard know all along, or was Joss Whedon throwing us a bone, one that would lie dormant for two years? Take what you will from this editorial, it's just a fan fanticising. But sign off your thoughts below, am I on target or have my targeting blades been switched? Say what you need to in the usual place!

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DEVLIN712 - 4/3/2014, 12:49 PM
Just noticed this was put in news, sorry people, I made a mistake!
Doopie - 4/3/2014, 12:51 PM
good spot, i hadn't seen this connection. so loki knows that hydra has infiltrated shield? this brings up a lot more how did he know? from one of the people e mind-controlled? is barton who we think he is?
charlie2094 - 4/3/2014, 12:52 PM
Interesting! Didn't even occur to me after seeing Winter Soldier

Could've and very likely was just them laying some seeds for Winter Soldier since they would've known at the time what it'd roughly be, but it's an interesting theory for sure.

Maybe Loki did know...probably more just set up, but maybe...

Sumitsjc - 4/3/2014, 12:54 PM

throw this out of your head like that Glass man.
BatGOD - 4/3/2014, 12:54 PM
huh? o_O
cipher - 4/3/2014, 12:55 PM
Thumbs up, mate.

Tuuralihn - 4/3/2014, 12:55 PM
oh damn, didn't think about that! Good catch!
charlie2094 - 4/3/2014, 12:55 PM
Not quite sure how Loki would've known about Hydra having infiltrated SHIELD though, not sure where that knowledge would come from...unless one of the agents whose mind he controlled was one of the Hydra agents, like Sitwell

ruadh - 4/3/2014, 12:58 PM
Black Widow is simply a spy, lying and's nothing more than that. Either way, this makes little difference.
Gusto - 4/3/2014, 1:00 PM
It's still better than when Nomis
infiltrated my bed!

DEVLIN712 - 4/3/2014, 1:01 PM
Charlie and MMM
Barton mentions that SHIELD have a lot of enemies, those are the guys who elwere helping Loki
TheManFromMars - 4/3/2014, 1:03 PM
Nice foreshadowing
ruadh - 4/3/2014, 1:12 PM
So...SHIELD wasn't doing covert espionage assassination type stuff other than the Hydra people?

Makes total sense.
ruadh - 4/3/2014, 1:22 PM
"You lie and kill in the service of liars and killers. You pretend to be separate, to have your own code, something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!"

This is in reference to working for a covert organization that performs assassinations and espionage. It has absolutely nothing, foreshadowing or not, to do with the Hydra infiltration. Nick Fury is "THE spy", and spies lie and kill.

Loki made absolutely no mention about SHIELD being infiltrated by a rival organization bent on ruling the world, because he had no idea about that.
dethpillow - 4/3/2014, 3:34 PM
@ruafh - yeah, totally. right on. SHIELD has always been liars and killers. whether HYDRA's involved or not.

i mean it's a valid alternate way to read the speech, not exactly arguing against it, but totally agree with u, it's already true. SHIELD is terrible.
especially Loki would project this on any organization in power, cuz he knows what goes on behind the throne, and in Asgard everythings more up front anyways.

there's no pretense of civility about things in the first place. so i don't think this was at all any kind of foreshadowing of Cap 2. except in the sense that what happens in Cap 2 is just accurately showing how any organization like SHIELD is gonna turn out, u know?
Pedrito - 4/3/2014, 3:51 PM
I thought the line was "Not until I make him *bleep* you."
ruadh - 4/3/2014, 5:13 PM
That is the line, assuming you saw the version where they bleep out "kill".
ChanceX74 - 4/4/2014, 1:51 AM
The first issue I would have is that, in order for the premise of this editorial to be true, Loki would have to be switching the subject of his monologue mid stream. He's talking about BW directly and this proposes that he suddenly starts speaking about SHIELD for three sentences and then fluidly goes back to speaking on BW directly.

I'm not seeing that.

The other issue is period placement in an effort to validate a false perception by altering the sentence structure: "something that makes up for the horrors. But they are a part of you, and they will never go away!"

The word "but" usually doesn't start a sentence unless it's in response to something so that should read: "something that makes up for the horrors, but they are a part of you and they will never go away!"

The statement references horrors as a part of BW, not Hydra being part of SHIELD.
MightyZeus - 4/4/2014, 3:28 AM
That was an interesting read.
I think you may be right.
MsDarkPhoenix - 4/4/2014, 6:03 AM
I'll give you a thumbs up DEV but I'll read it tomorrow after I see TWS because I have already read too many spoilers...
CorndogBurglar - 4/4/2014, 6:14 AM
When you look at that scene by itself, then yes, it could look like this.

However, when you take it in the context of the rest of the movie (The Avengers), it was very obviously only meant to be him talking about how SHIELD was using the Tesseract and old Hydra weaponry (which was also created with the Tesseract), to make their own super weapons.

In fact, right after that scene, Cap goes and confronts Fury about it.

Thats all that scene was meant to be, and it was addressed in The Avengers.
enggarb - 4/4/2014, 8:21 AM
I don't know...what I know that TWS is the best Marvel movie....better than Avengers..
ruadh - 4/4/2014, 8:58 AM

Well put.


Also well put.
Ace101 - 4/4/2014, 11:39 PM
this is something that crossed my mind when i finished watching CA:TWS. but that particular scene wasnt one of the connections i made between avengers and CA:TWS. these are my thoughts:

1. Shields Phase 2 plan which was shield uses the tesserect to build WMDs same as ww2 hydra.

2. Black widows comment during the argument scene onboard the helicarrier that refers potential threats:
Natasha Romanoff: [all arguing in the lab] "Are you really that dense? S.H.I.E.L.D. monitors potential threats."
Bruce Banner: "Captain America is on threat watch?"
Natasha Romanoff: "We ALL are!"

3: Shield/ council sending the order to nuke NY could have brought hydras plans to fruition.

oh and this is something that doesnt relate to CA:TWS at all but when chitauri all died phantom menace style i think its was because thanos had ordered each soldier to be installed with a kill switch, that was activated when the ship blew up. such as if there is no signal from ship to soldier the kill switch will be deployed therefore no soldier can be captured and interrogated. sounds like something thanos would do.
TheDuck - 4/5/2014, 9:36 AM
Good Work Dev, love all your stuff
GliderMan - 4/7/2014, 9:58 AM
No. It was just talking about SHIELD. Even without HYDRA, SHIELD lies and kills.

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