Superman Vs Wonder Woman The Eternal Debate

Thoughts on Superman vs. Wonder Woman debate
Superman vs Hulk next

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By aresww3 - 1/11/2013
(This was posted by WDW It was a pretty good post so I figured I would repost it here)

Wonder Woman People and Superman people (with regard to the battle thread)

Wonder Woman Vs Superman BATTLE is one of the most debated issues in comic book history and apparently one of the hardest to resolve. After about a year of debating this topic I have come to the conclusion that Wonder Woman people and Superman people have a fundamental difference in the way they rate the abilities of the respective characters. This fundamental difference makes it impossible to have any kind of realistic debate.

SUPERMAN PEOPLE (battle situations)

In general, I define Superman people as people who place the most value on strength, durability and speed as factors for a characters win over the other in the absence of other abilities like mind control, intangibility, time shifting to name a few.

Superman has enormous strength feats primarily against the environment. This fact is consistent throughout Superman's history and nobody should argue that any mainstream hero in the DC universe is stronger than Superman. Superman has equally impressive speed feats against the environment and nobody should argue that any mainstream hero in the DC universe can go from point A to B faster than superman accept Speedsters. Superman's durability vs. the environment is second to none in the DC Universe. It can be said in all actuality that Superman is the most powerful mainstream being in the DC universe. This is established DC canon and probably will not change ever.

Fortunately for superman people, strength, durability and speed are things everyone is familiar with. It's easy to spot and measure and is pretty much awe inspiring when it is displayed.

Unfortunately for Superman, in the real world superior strength, durability and speed (from point A to B) rarely result in automatic wins in competition level fights/duels.

WONDER WOMAN PEOPLE (battle Situation)

Wonder Woman people value Skill/Speed, training/Combat Knowledge and weapon usage as the primary factor for a characters success in battle as long as there strength and durability are regarded as good enough to stand-up to stronger beings. They site numerous feats where Wonder Woman has stood up to beings as strong as or stronger than herself and in some cases standing up to multiple beings as strong and durable as her. The key theme in Wonder Woman's origin and background as well as pretty much every other combat/melee based hero literature including comics, is that skill/training combat knowledge and tactics are more important than raw strength, durability and (travel speed). One of the most notable examples of that theme is when Hippolyta defeated Hercules a being clearly MUCH stronger and durable than herself using only her fighting skills.

Fortunately for Wonder Woman people, in the real world Skill/speed training/Combat knowledge are all seen as way more important than raw strength, durability and (Travel speed) when it comes to fighting contests between 2 people of similar strength, durability and speed.

Unfortunately for Wonder Woman she does not exist in the real world. The world she lives in does not obey law of physics. As a comic book it was never designed to and does not need to.

Also Wonder Woman is very unique. She is the only Superhero that has super strength on par with superman and combat/fighting skills ranked as one of the best in the DC universe however that is almost always over looked since she is the only one to have such abilities and to get the full sense of what that entails you need to read her comics.

SUPERMAN PEOPLE THE LOGIC OF THE WIN (supported by feats and evidence)

Superman is stronger faster (travel) and more durable. He usually holds back when he is fighting. He has shattered and moved planets he can survive inside the sun and survive a supernova. Superman has better raw strength feats than Wonder Woman.

WONDER WOMAN PEOPLE THE LOGIC OF THE WIN (supported by feats and evidence)

Superman has little to no fighting skills. Wonder Woman has beaten Krytonions and similar beings before. Wonder Woman has been hit by Superman many times and never been K.Oed Wonder Woman has magic weapons that are show to be able to cut and seriously injure Superman. Wonder Woman also holds back. Wonder Woman had faster reaction time and fight reflexes than superman.

Why Wonder Woman people are wrong and Superman people right

Superman is the most powerful being in the DC universe he is stronger faster and more durable. Even though Superman has punched wonder woman several times over the years and has yet to KO her, FEAT supported fact that superman can shatter planets with his punches means the argument can be made that he was "holding back" when he fought wonder woman. If superman is not holding back or is blood lusted wonder woman cannot survive his planet shattering KO punch if it connects. Superman simply has more strength, durability and travel speed feats than Wonder Woman.

The great thing about this argument is that it is simple and allows supporters to easily increase superman's strength durability and speed when needed. It easily explains away obvious contradictions in superman canon when he is seen being defeated by Wonder Woman and other less powerful beings. "Superman was holding back" it is a simple yet ingenious argument.

The problem with this argument is that is sounds like a copout to Wonder Woman people and it certainly does not lend itself to further discussion since there is no way to measure how much superman was holding back or if he was actually holding back or not.

The argument also completely ignores the fact that virtually all superhero's including Wonder Woman hold back when fighting since it is generally accepted that superhero's do not intend to cause fatal injuries in battle. However Wonder Woman people rarely use the fact to counter superman peoples claim that he holds back.

In addition, the argument that superman wins because he is more powerful i.e.... stronger faster (travel) and more durable does not translate well then you apply that same argument to characters like Batman, Black Canary, Lady Shiva ETC who routinely go up against more powerful, stronger, more durable opponents and beat them using pure skill and knowledge of combat.

Why Superman people are wrong and Wonder Woman people right

Generally in a real world setting if the fight takes place in a generic earth based setting between Superman and Wonder Woman and you accept the feat supported facts that Wonder Woman is a much better fighter has weapons that can kill him is considered to have faster combat reflexes. / Superior combat training, advanced tactical knowledge and is in the same strength, blunt force durability and travel speed* category as superman and is virtually immune to his heat vision** and has similar flight abilities. It's easy to see why Wonder Woman people say she would beat him.

(*Superman is faster** She can block it almost at will and is fairly resist to heat anyway.)

The great thing about this argument is that you establish a bench mark of abilities which can be compared to the DC Universe in a rational way logical way that avoids confusion. Since Batman, Shiva Batgirl, night wing, the karate kid, Black Canary, and countless other hero's operate on the premise that superior combat abilities and skill allow them to take on and defeat stronger and more durable beings, why can't wonder woman operate on the same premise since she is one of DC Universes top fighters.

The problem with this argument is that Superman canon and in-fact all canon involving beings with super strength, like Captain Marvel, Power girl, Black Adam, MMH DARKSIED ETC do not operate on the same basic real world premise in which BATMAN, CANARY and the other top fighters in DC comics operate on which is Superior skill and tactics is enough to win fights.

That concept does not exist when dealing with Superman level beings. There is NO heavy hitter at superman's strength level that has been formally trained in combat. Sure there are footnotes here and there stating someone trained superman to use pressure points or that power girl learned some skills from wild cat. However no DC UNIVERSE heavy hitter is considered to be one of the top fighters in the DCU except for Wonder Woman. In fact out off all the melee users in the DCU heavy hitters or tanks probably rank as the worst hand to hand and weapons fighters in the DC universe And because of this, fights between heavy hitters are always determined by the strongest most durable character. The feats used to determine the strength of the heavy hitters are often lifting pulling and smashing.

Now the issue with Wonder Woman is although she is as strong as a heavy hitter/ She is not a TANK she is a warrior and relies mostly on superior fighting skill and tactics rather than raw power and strength so when it's time to compare FEATS between Superman and Wonder Woman. Superman people post scans of him smashing a planet or scans of him punching DARKSIED to prove he is stronger than wonder woman and will therefore win any battle between the two.

Wonder Woman people post scans of her using her fighting skills which is pretty standard when people are comparing melee based non-heavy hitters batman , Black Canary and Cassandra Cain.

That is usually the point at which the debate between Wonder Woman VS Superman breaks down. Both Wonder Woman and Superman people are posting scans and listing feats that do not make sense to each other.

Conclusion

Superman and Wonder Woman people see different aspects of these battles and both have valid arguments. However there are fundamental differences in the way they compare the two. Comparing Superman FEATS to Wonder Woman feats is like comparing apples to oranges. So until Superman people and Wonder Woman people agree on a way reconcile the different methods superman and wonder woman people use to support their argument. The Jury will be out on who the true winner would be and any further discussion is futile.

Appendix

This is a rough graph of fighting ability vs. raw strength in the DC Universe. The boxes represent the high and low end of a range. The names in the boxes are not in any particular order.

Also, each box represents different comic book canons with regard to fighting ability and strength. For example BOX (A) character abilities can be directly compared since they fall into the same canon BOX (A) However BOX (A) assumes that the other boxes/canon do not exist. The same goes with all the other boxes.


This graph should make it easy to visualize the reason why Wonder Woman VS Superman threads break down





Box D represents the area in which superman canon and superman physics operate. Only raw feats of strength and durability are used to determine the winner in any battle among superheroes and villains in box D mainly because none of the characters are regarded as good fighters relative to the rest of the boxes. Characters in box D are generally regarded as the strongest beings in the DC universe.

Box A,B,C,E generally operate on real world physics. Characters in these boxes depend on strength feats and fighting ability feats for battle thread debates.
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CavEl - 1/11/2013, 6:42 AM
Superman vs. Wonder Woman = Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman is a trained fighter and not that far apart from Superman in terms of strength, speed or durablity. Wonder Woman has Superman beat in agility and Diana has muscle memory so she can predict his moves.

Wonder Woman > Superman.
CavEl - 1/11/2013, 6:52 AM
In terms of the Trinity, it's...

Wonder Woman owns Superman and Batman, Superman own Batman and Batman is here because he's popular.
CorndogBurglar - 1/11/2013, 9:14 AM
There's no way. WW is not even close to Supes in strength, speed, or durability.

It would be a decent fight at first, but she would not be able to go the distance with Supes. No way in hell.

The only chance is if she is using her sword that can cut him. Then it might be different, but WW would never use that on him.
aresww3 - 1/11/2013, 9:38 AM
@Corndogburglar - You saying wonder woman wouldn´t use her sword on him, is like saying he wouldn´t use his lethal stength on her. It negates the whole fight if they go in morally. Part of the way WW fights is with weapons, so they have to be included. Its like saying supes can´t use lazer vision, they´re part and parcel of who the characters are.
I think they´re quite evenly matched.
aresww3 - 1/11/2013, 9:38 AM
Its like a UFC fighter against the world strongest man.
G3n3r4lzZoD9 - 1/11/2013, 2:08 PM
"Superman vs. Wonder Woman = Wonder Woman"


ravennpilot - 1/11/2013, 2:32 PM
I have Wonder Woman tattooed on my side. Superman is a monster. WW might be able to beat him but it's his fight to lose.

The odds are always going to be stacked in Superman's favor. There is no question about that. If you start adding in different circumstances then maybe that starts to change.

Its like Batman vs Superman. There are a thousand ways for Superman to beat Batman, but under the most fantastic circumstances. Batman will win, that is how comics are written. They write what has to happen in order to solve a problem not a million of ways things could happen.
CorndogBurglar - 1/11/2013, 5:47 PM
@ aresww

You're right, Superman wouldnt use his lethal strength on Wonder Woman. But the bottom line is he can still punch her a lot harder than she can punch him, without killing her.

The bottom line is, hand to hand, Supes is stronger and can take more punishment. I just dont see how Wonder Woman would be able to put him down for the count. The guy is strong enough to move planets. WW isnt strong enough to even ALMOST do that.

Im not trying to take anything away from WW, she's definately a badass and a very cool character, but she couldnt hang with Supes long enough to put him down. She's just not strong enough or durable enough.
GuardianDevil - 1/11/2013, 6:44 PM
Wonder Woman is the best one in the trinity, Superman is vulnerable to magic and Batman is just plain weak. Wonder Woman would defintely win against Superman...and I agree with @Knightofsteel that you should do one about Superman vs Batman to prove to these dumb fanboys that Batman only beat him once and that was due to idiotic writers and that most of the time Superman owns Batman..

Great Article... I'm looking forward to Supes vs Hulk :)
johnblake - 1/11/2013, 7:13 PM
this is no fight. superman. WHY IS THIS A THING. SUPERMAN VS GOKU.
CavEl - 1/12/2013, 3:17 AM
Except that Superman has never beaten Wonder Woman before...EVER! And Wonder Woman has held his life in her hands multiple times.

There isn't that much of a gap between Superman and Wonder Woman, and what little gap there is, Diana compensates for it with her superior fighting knowledge, superior agility and her ability to read movements faster than any other in the world and counter instantly. Not to mention, Diana is a magic heroine and she walks around with magical items. Like her sword of Hephaestus which can cut through anything. Her magic lasso which will bind and restrict Superman instantly...or her magic bracelets that would render Superman's most powerful weapon (heat vision) null and void.

Superman can not beat Wonder Woman, that has been suggested many a number of times. Saying Superman can beat Wonder Woman is like saying Batman can beat Superman. Diana has too many advantages in this fight.
ravennpilot - 1/12/2013, 4:47 AM
This fight is like taking a Heavyweight boxing champ and having him fight a Polar Bear. Sure there is a chance but my money is on the bear.
CavEl - 1/12/2013, 11:04 AM
@ Sotojuice - First of all, you know nothing about Wonder Woman if you think she's that far off from Superman. Wonder Woman is considered the strongest woman on the planet, she's in Superman's league in terms of strenght, speed and durability...as I've said. Here's her official power levels per DC...

Powers and Abilities

Powers

Superhuman Strength: Granted by Demeter (Goddess of the Earth). Diana is literally as strong as the Earth because of her link to the planet granted to her by Demeter. She is said to be 'stronger than Hercules'. It is obvious her strength is magical in nature, given her height and weight. Wonder Woman is known to be one of the strongest beings in the DCU, often shown to be in the same class as Superman himself and to physically over-match other beings such as Supergirl without too much effort. She is considered to be the strongest superheroine in the world. She has godlike strength and also invulnerability due to her aegis-made shield magic bracelets. With her superhuman strength and superior fighting abilities, she has proven to be able to take on any other member of the Justice League in combat. In the events of Justice League: League of One, she was able to defeat even the other six main members through a combination of planning and power in order to save their lives and the world. She is strong enough to lift weights well into the megaton range and even pull 1/3 of the earth.

Superhuman Durability: Granted by Demeter (Goddess of the Earth). Diana, possesses a high resistance to damage and magical attacks. Her resistance to injury is not quite as great as any of the above mentioned metahumans. However, due to her vast threshold for pain and her amazon ability to heal at a superhuman rate, this easily makes up for the difference. She has withstood considerable bludgeoning damage in the form of hand to hand combat with metahuman opponents such as Superman and Captain Marvel. She has considerable resistance to human weaponries,though this is not absolute; Bullets can cause minor to moderate injury, but never life threatening. And her ability to heal rapidly, makes up for this set back. She can easily survive under extreme pressures, cold, and heat. Wonder Woman has been able to traverse space, undergo submergence into lava, and withstand a direct explosion from a nuclear warhead unharmed. Born of the clay of Themyscira, and given life and divine powers by the gods themselves, Diana has heightened resistance to magical attacks. She is highly experienced in battling foes who use sorcery as a weapon. As a divine creation herself, she is far-less susceptible to manipulation by magic and mental attack than many of her fellow heroes. Also, Wonder Woman is self-sufficient in that she doesn't have to eat and can go without sleep. She is also capable of holding her breath under water, for hours and hours on end. She did this once when her and the Green Lantern were trying to fake her death.

Flight: Granted by Hermes (God of Messengers). Wonder Woman is capable of unassisted flight through an as yet unknown but probably magical means or through telekinesis. Her aerial maneuverability is not as developed as aerial combatants such as Hawkman or the Black Condor, but she is still a relatively capable aerial combatant as well. Wonder Woman is capable of flying at speeds of greater than escape velocity. She has been clocked at Mach 5 (hyper-sonic) traveling in sustained flight and can go much faster if need be.

Superhuman Speed: Granted by Hermes (God of Messengers). She is able to think, react and move at superhuman speeds. Her top speed is high hypersonic(It's lightspeed in some instances but it may not be consistent) and according to Flash, she can easily keep up with him but it should be noted that the Flash does not usually go at his nearly max speed which is lightspeed, unless the situation is severe and calls for it.

Superhuman Reflexes: Granted by Hermes (God of Messengers). Wonder Woman possesses reflex abilities similar to speedsters, such as Jesse Quick and Max Mercury, and has been noted as being faster than Superman's. She is able to keep up with Jesse Quick with ease, referencing her patron deity of speed and messenger of the gods, Hermes, as the source of her powers. Wonder Woman's reflexes are far beyond the limitations of the finest human athletes. She has been able to react to a barrage of gunfire from multiple opponents at once unharmed. Batman noted that her reflexes are superior to that of Superman.

Superhuman Agility: Wonder Womans's agility is far beyond that of even an olympic level athlete, as is her balance and coordination.

Superhuman Stamina: Wonder Woman can last a great deal of time in any fight and with virtually anyone. She has held her own in combat with foes as powerful as a Doomsday clone. She doesn't tire out, as her body produces no lactic acids in her muscles.

Enhanced Healing Factor: Granted by Demeter (Goddess of Earth). Like the Earth, Diana is constantly renewing herself, allowing her to quickly heal mild to moderate injuries at an amazing rate. Her normal regenerative abilities allow her to recover from injury within seconds to minutes. She possesses an incredible immunity from poisons, toxins, as well as disease. In rare cases where she was gravely injured or where another has managed to severely poison her, Diana showed the ability to physically merge with the Earth, causing whatever injuries or poisons to be expelled from her body as she regains shape. Wonder Woman does not age like a regular human either. She is immortal while on Paradise island.

Oneness With Fire: Granted by Hestia (Goddess of the Hearth). Apparently making her a focus of truth.

Empathy: Granted by Athena. (Goddess of Wisdom) "The Sight of Athena" apparently grants her increased insight. For example, Diana can often detects others' emotions, and is now so fully immune to Doctor Psycho's illusions that she usually is not even aware of what illusions he is attempting to project. Apparently most forms of mind control will not work on her either. Even other high-level telepaths would be unable to read her mind or attack her in such a manner.
Animal Rapport: Granted by Artemis (Goddess of the Hunt). Ability to communicate with all forms of animals (including dinosaurs) and her presence alone can bring a raging beast to a calm standstill. She is also able to directly command wild animals when needed. She used bald eagles to distract Superman after defeating him in battle once.

Enhanced Senses: Granted by Artemis (Goddess of the Hunt). Eyesight, hearing, taste, touch and smell.
Enhanced Vision: She also possess the "Hunters Eye" which allows her to always hit her mark. She can see to far greater distances than any normal human. Wonder Woman was briefly blinded, then had her sight restored by Athena. Since then, she has had the sight of Athena.
Enhanced Smell
Enhanced Hearing

Dimensional Teleportation: On occasion, Wonder Woman can literally leave the planet through meditation. She did this to rescue Artemis when she was in hell, and has even conversed with the Greek Gods on occasion.

Abilities

Master Combatant: Diana is the finest warrior ever born among the Amazons of Themyscira. She is a master of armed and unarmed combat, proficient with nearly every weapon ever made (especially the bow and the javelin) and the exotic martial arts styles of the Amazons. Batman once remarked that Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world.

Master Tactician and Strategist: Diana is also an accomplished strategist and tactician, trained in the arts of leadership, persuasion and diplomacy, and possesses a great deal of courage as well. She is a gifted leader.


Equipment
Indestructible Gauntlets: Modeled after the shackles the Amazons were once enslaved with. The gauntlets were formed from the remains of Zeus's legendary Aegis shield, and were re-forged for her use by Hephaestus. Diana's superhuman reflexes enable her to use the gauntlets to easily deflect projectiles (such as bullets) and powerful energy blasts from beings such as Ares and Darkseid. She is even fast enough to protect herself from multi-vector attacks. At close-range the gauntlets block blades, weapons and punches. In some stories, Diana has used the gauntlets as a dual defensive/offensive weapon, redirecting energy blasts back to their point of origin or other targets. They are even able to deflect Darkseid's energy attacks. When crossed, the gauntlets generate a remnant of the Aegis itself, forming an impenetrable barrier just in front of them which allows Diana to protect herself and those behind her from area attacks. With bracelets forged by Hephastus, Wonder Woman boosts her resistance to injury with her indestructible bracelets. She is able to deflect attacks that might otherwise cause her considerable injury but she can only deflect attacks she is aware of. It has recently been revealed that the braclets, as they were made from Zeus' legendary Aegis, have the capability to discharge lightning from them. Zeus himself confirmed this revelation, stating that the code was merely "unlocked" by Diana.
Lasso of Truth: The Lasso of Truth (Kalos Alétheias) is her famous trade mark device. Most who are captured in it, are forced to tell her any questions she asks and make it incapable for him or her to lie. It cannot be broken, snapped or cut. And she can also control it to a certain degree using telepathy. It can also be used to erase memories, heal the mentally ill (in some cases), and implant commands that must then be obeyed.
Lansarian Morphing Disk: Wonder Woman has at her disposal a small lightweight disc of alien (Lansinar) technology that, when triggered by her thoughts, transforms into a transparent version of whatever object or vehicle is appropriate for her needs. The device has been used for several purposes, including a communication device, but is most frequently used by Wonder Woman in the form of an invisible jet plane, thus reintroducing this vehicle for the first time in post-Crisis continuity. She has also used the amorphous disc in partnership with Green Lantern's power ring, to hold Earth's moon together while shifting its orbit.

Black Lantern Ring: During her brief period as a Black Lantern, Diana was given a Black Lantern Ring by Nekron.
Star Sapphire Ring (formerly): Diana temporarily held a copy of Carol Ferris' Star Sapphire Ring, and has been drafted in its corps as an emergency measure for the remainder of the Blackest Night. Once the battle was over, Diana was officially discharged from the Star Sapphire Corps.

Transportation
Flight commonly.
Invisible Jet
Kane Milohai's sea shell: Granted as a boon to Diana when she pledged loyalty to him in order to save her mother, this sea shell floats in air and water, may grow in size to carry large numbers of passengers, and can travel between dimensions and even places that are otherwise mystically inaccessible.

Weapons
Axe
Lasso of Truth
Star Sapphire Ring (formerly)
Sword of Hephaestus
Boomerang Tiara: Diana's golden tiara also doubles as a throwing weapon, as it is razor-edged and can cut through most substances.


Okay, let's procede, shall we?

1.) The two Superman vs. Wonder Woman battles have occured in Justice League books. They were not written to make Diana look good and Superman was not holding back. Superman was out for blood on both occasions.

2.)Wonder Woman uses her sword when she needs to. You can't take away her arsenal just to make Superman come out on top. Also, the president doesn't controll gas prices. The Oil speculators do and the two biggest oil speculators are The Koch brothers who are open Republicans.

3.)Wonder Woman fears NO MAN! That's the point of her character, she was trained to fight and continue to fight even against the odds. Plus, she's faced off with him before and whenever he hit her it broke one of her bones. She quickly realized that she can't let him hit her and her agility took over and made his strength pointless.

4.) Wonder Woman vs. Mongul is different. Wonder Woman's best attribute is her fighting ability, she uses it to beat opponents that are stronger than her like Superman. Mongul is a gifted fighter himself, he handed Wonder Woman a beating because Diana couldn't counter as much as she would like. Superman beat Mongul because he doesn't have to worry about countering, he has Mongul out matched in speed and agility.

So, in a fight where Superman can't hit Diana, isn't fast enough to catch her and when he does she will counter it...mixed with Diana's magic sword, lasso, tierra and bracletts, you still think Superman can beat her? Please tell me how.
aresww3 - 1/12/2013, 1:41 PM
@sotojuiceman you cant use the jl cartoon, she 's made much weaker for some bizarre reason. In her comic prenew 52 she is so much more powerful and skilled a fighter. Its like using the lynda carter show as an example. stick to the comics. not saying your wrong but be fair.
aresww3 - 1/12/2013, 5:38 PM
@sotojuiceman - all I´m saying is you can´t count the cartoon, its a watered down wonder woman, she´s much more powerful in her own publication. But I still think superman is [frick] off strong, possibly to strong for her to handle, but pre new 52 wonder woman in the comics had much more power and superior fighting skill.s. using the cartoon as proof is like using the bill bixby incredible hulk as proof of his power level.
CavEl - 1/13/2013, 7:35 AM
First off, the DCAU is NOT cannon. Never has been, never will be. Sure, DC tries to use themes advertised in their animated universe in the comics, but it is not canon. Hawkgirl is not a founding member of the Justice League, neither is John Stewart.

Second off, no one thinks Wonder Woman is only as powerful as Goku. Wonder Woman, J'onn and Captain Marvel are all considered equal to Superman.

Again, Superman, to this date, has never beaten Diana in a fight. He stands 0-2 against her.
CavEl - 1/14/2013, 3:42 AM
@ Sotojuiceman - I understand a writer can write anything, but it doesn't make the idea that Diana can beat Clark any less true. The DCAU IS NOT CANNON, it never had been. EVER!

The only books that have Batman beating Superman are books written by Frank Miller, don't bother saying HUSH because Batman didn't win in Hush. He was about to get crushed by a car.

I don't know why you keep refusing this, but the difference between Wonder Woman and Superman in terms of strength is not that big.

Wonder Woman has pulled a third of the Earth along with Superman and Martian. They each pulled a third of the weight, but it is common knowledge Superman is stronger.



Speed; neither Wonder Woman nor Superman come close to being as fast as the speedsters. But Diana has caught someone running through the speed force, a feat Superman has never done.



Agility? She's tagged a rouge Flash...Superman never has.




Wonder Woman is the best fighter in the original 7, Superman is thought to be the most dangerous if he goes rouge because...unlike Diana, Superman can breath in space. But in a one-on-one fist fight (Diana gets her standard gear) Diana will win because Diana's agility, magical tools, reaction time, fighting abilities and speed means Superman LOSES! Without the magical items, Diana will lose though, but you can't take away her standard gear to make Superman win.

I'm a Superman fan and I know Superman will lose.


The original 7: Superman > Martian > Wonder Woman > Superman.
CavEl - 1/14/2013, 2:04 PM
Look, I'm not going to keep arguing with you. You keep mentioning the comics, but everytime I show you a strip of Wonder Woman doing something you say it doesn't count. I can show you this, but you can't show me one instance of Superman beating Wonder Woman.



Like I said, Superman is 0-2 against her as far as I know, that means DC is trying to make a point. Batman is 2-11-1 against Superman. The more famous ones are the ones where Batman wins, but Superman has beaten him more times than Batman can count.
CavEl - 1/14/2013, 2:07 PM
And I am a Superman fan, I'm not a Superman fan because I think he can beat everyone. I hate that actually, because then writers have to draw up stupid ideas like bench pressing the planet for 5 days without breaking a sweat to compensate for something Thor did and it turns into a pissing contest.

I'd rather have Superman just be powerful while having the will to never give up, even if his opponent is stronger than him. Don't need him to be the strongest, fastest, most unbeatable superhero ever.
CavEl - 1/15/2013, 11:42 AM
Source Material says I'm right, I'm right.

Superman only has strength on Diana, but Diana is tied or outclasses him everywhere else. Diana vs. Superman = Brock Lesnar vs. an MMA fighter = Lesnar/Superman might get some good hits in the fight, but the MMA fighter is just a better fighter.

Unless you can prove to me otherwise in any comic book where Superman has beaten Diana you don't have a case. Even Batman's fights that he didn't lose to Superman show Superman unwilling to use deadly force on him. The writers may write dumbshit, but they usually have a good enough reason. No writer has ever written that Superman can beat Diana, not one.

Again, Superman > J'onn > Wonder Woman > Superman.
CavEl - 1/15/2013, 11:45 AM
And in a random encounter, Superman would lose 10-10 because Diana wouldn't be afraid to go for the jugular. She doesn't do the no kill thing.

With morals off and they know each other? Diana still beats him because, like I've said a million times, Diana is a better fighter. This is a fight between Batman and a big guy with no superpowers. Who wins then?
aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 1:38 PM
@sotojuicman - "It's written that way, again that makes no sense to make it OH WELL IT WAS IN THE COMICS. The point is if Superman & Wonder Woman actually first met and considered themselves enemies and went toe to toe with Superman, NOT IF IT HAPPENED IN COMICS!"
1. Alot of your arguments seem to be premised on the fact you can´t use comics as evidence for the fact WW can beat superman, but they are comic characters so that makes no sense. That is the only evidence that can be used.
You said superman can fly into the sun and charge himself then come back and destroy her, so why doesn´t he do that against doomsday or Darkseid? Because you know that isn´t a regular power of his. As is normal his body is already saturated with energy, his krytonian physiology can´t take much more, he usually replenishes himself when he is weakened, not at his normal state, because he´s pretty much maxed out. His energy does not infinitly increase with exposure to the sun, and no where in the comics does it suggest this. Or that exposure to the sun will disable his weakness to kryptonite or magic.
2. The second argument is we should use science. But that again would be difficult to do. You say Superman can travel 9 times the speed of light, well nothing can do that. If an object did do that its mass would increase to 9 times the power of infinity. Even superman could not support that weight, so it would be impossible for him to go that fast even if capable of it. He´d also end up traveling into the future. The far distant future meaning he´d lose by default. Science cannot help you here as supermans increased feets by writers make no sense. Even him being strong enough to push a planet makes no sense as he would could only push through it, as an object as small as superman is unable move an object as big as a planet, even if strong enough he´d end up just breaking through the earths crust. Science is not an option to fall back on solely. Comic history, their powers and common sense is all that can help you here.
aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 1:51 PM
"1. Superman can fly faster, is stronger than Wonder Woman, and has become more durable during the years. His only problem is that he holds back, fearing what he can actually do if he really did inflict heavy damage on his opponent. No writer has written Superman with just him full powered from the beginning of the comic, especially in a battle. That reason is to not overpower him and for the readers to enjoy him so they can at least see a god hero be taken down. I can write anything and so can you, just like this next observation."

Look I understand where you get this idea from, it is true writers on WW have been inconsistent. In the JLA cartoon as well WW was made so much weaker it was unbelievable. But the fact is even WW original creator said she was supposed to be as strong as superman, and over the years they´ve weakened her. However you are judging probably off JL comics and the series. But writers are so inconsistent with Diana in in JL publications cause alot of the writers haven´t even read her comics or know what she´s about. Why do you think you never see WW villains turn up in JLA comics? or the animated series? If they did bother to read her comic they might understand her powers more. In her own publication their has been a consistent image of WW being very powerful and capable. Her strength feets in her comics are very impressive indeed, her speed feets, especially reflex speed even more impressive. As for her skills as a master of weapons and warrior they are second to none in her comics. Their are then secondary powers, like her ability to communicate with beasts of prey, healing ability etc etc etc.

2. "Brock Lesnar WAS AN MMA FIGHTER and HE DID WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP BELT, TWICE! He was the Heavyweight Champion and Undisputed Champion. Oh wait you we're probably like 9 or 10 when that happened. That was also a wrestler who won championships too and was in other leagues of wrestling."

I think his point was put the worlds strongest man up against the greatest warrior and the warrior is going to win if all the strongest man does is push weights. fair point

3. "Again think about it if they ever first met, in fact since your really dumb and don't believe anything I said, watch this video and tell me now CAN WONDER WOMAN REALLY DEFEAT SUPERMAN? It's like Superman a heavyweight boxer going up against a Middleweight with super powers, MAKES NO SENSE! "

As you said it all depends on the way they´ve written the comic. I have evidence to the contrary.
Look I understand where
aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 2:43 PM
@ YOUR argument earlier was that it would take him seconds to travel to the sun and back, so if he was fighting doomsday and he´s worried about innocents and he´s dying, surely he should have flown to through the sun and back as many times as he could during the battle. If he´s that fast that would not be a problem.

As stated the before the comic world has its own set of physical laws clearly that have very little to do with our own world; Supermans feets are impossible, for instance if you say he can travel 9 times the speed of light, what I was saying is I´ll grant you that, but according to science this is what would happen if he did: i.e. he would time travel or his mass would increase to a disproportionate point. I.e. scientifically he can´t do that.
So there´s no point trying to justify his feets through science.

Last, I don´t necessarily believe WW would win, but I think it is very possible given her powers and abilities. To outsmart, outwit, or out fight superman. By the way theres alot of confusion with WW powers that you were mentioning earlier, I actually replied before but it disappeared off the page.

It was about why WW can be injured by piercing weapons.

I can explain this to you:

Supermans powers come from his physiology. If you examine superman or Atom Man or MMH actual physiology you will understand their powers.

WW powers come purely from magic, her strength is not something physiologically bound to her but produced through mystical forces, as are all of her flight, speed etc. Her actual body is as normal as any other human beings, just flesh, that´s why bullets pierce her, she can be bruised if hit hard enough, and bones be broken.
However her durability really comes from her bodies ability to heal almost instantly from man made weapons like bullets etc. They will injure her, but not greatly and if she´s connected to the earth especially she can completely rejuvinate herself. same with knifes, blows from superpowered individuals. Her connection with the Earth Goddess grants her the ability to replenish herself life the earth itself.
but ultimately she is slowed down or injured by great velocity impact upon her body, whether thats a blow by Superman or a bullet. so it is absolutely consistent, just some writers don´t bother to actually understand her powers, which are quite different from Supermans.
aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 2:44 PM
By the way I´m loving both you guys stuborness. :)
CavEl - 1/15/2013, 2:51 PM
@ SotoJuiceMan -

1.) Superman is faster, but Diana is more agile. In a race, Superman would win, but Diana has a faster reaction time than Superman. See, read this...



In terms of strength, Diana and Superman have always been equated as equals. If Superman is ranked in a Class A+ in terms of strength in the DCU, Wonder Woman would be Class A flat. And sure, Superman is more durable, but Wonder Woman has fought him before while he was breaking her bones and she just shrugged it off and kept fighting because that's what she was trained to do. Also, Superman fought Diana at full power because Maxwell Lord hypnotized him into thinking Diana was Doomsday and that she was looking to kill Lois. Superman wasn't holding back in the fight.

2.) Brock Lesnar was the champ when he was fighting other brawlers, when he met a kickboxers, what happened? He got his ass kicked! Why? Because wrestling requires strength and domination, kickboxing requires technique.

3.)Superman vs. Wonder WOman is NOT a heavy weight boxer vs. a middle weight boxer. Superman vs. Wonder Woman is more like a middle weight boxer vs. Georges St-Pierre. GSP is a better fighter since he knows more styles, he'll win. Superman only knows how to box, I don't like the sillyness of Diana and Bruce teaching him their styles.

aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 2:53 PM
@sotojuiceman - Yeah I agree Brock Lesnar is very hard, but thats not the point. I was simply trying to clarify what he was saying - which is valid. Supermans main power feets are against the enviroment, where as WW are against opponents. Look she even messed up Power Girl, when they went toe to toe, and Power Girl is definitely in Supermans power range.
CavEl - 1/15/2013, 3:11 PM
@ aresww3 - She's beaten Power Girl and Supergirl, she's considered the strongest woman in the world with those two alive.
aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 4:22 PM
@sotojuiceman - I have often repeated that I´m not sure who would win, cause Superman is incredibly powerful. What I actually said is that the scenario´s you produced to prove supermans powers were scientifically unsound. If you are going to use science to back your argument, I was just saying be more careful. If you can´t, its therefore best to use evidence from the comics as it follows its own scientific rules. As for what I said about WW magic based powers, I was just trying to clarify them for you, it was not an argument for why she could beat superman or not. I was just saying that she has a far more normal human body, than superman, whose powers are based on physical attributes i.e. dissect supermans body and or DNA and you will understand his powers, not the same for WW. Its like a sorcerous, their power is based purely on manipulation of mystical forces, rather than being physically based. That does not necessarily mean that superman would lose to her, I was just explaining your confusion as to why she can be harmed to a greater degree as than Superman from physical impact, or piercing weapons and how her specific form of durability works through her healing factor. She´s more like Wolverine, or Hulk, you can shoot and injure them, but they´ll heal.
As for where I personally stand in this battle, I do think Superman would have a very hard time with WW even if they first met and she had all of her gear on her and if she employed more than just fighting skill, but also cunning, as she is trained in strategy as well. That could give her the time to figure out what he´s about. I think it would be pretty quick, maybe his first blow against her that she´ll realise his incredible power and compensate for that with strategy. Whether that will lead her to ultimate victory is debatable, but to say he´d annihilate her, just through brute strength down plays all skills as a warrior and her immense powers as well.
aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 4:26 PM




aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 4:29 PM




aresww3 - 1/15/2013, 4:58 PM
Oh and for the record it is obvious that superman can beat WW, but not every time or even most of the time.
If its a death match, where both have no morals, I think WW has the upperhand.
If its one of them trying to restrain the other, so they can´t do harm to themselves or anyone else, Superman wins every time. If he can continue fighting Diana can´t deal with his level of power. But if she can kill him, I don´t think it would work out for Supes.
Yeaton10 - 1/16/2013, 4:44 PM
I agree with those who say Wonder Woman fears superman (and by implication others from Krypton). But, the thing is that people prepare for what they fear, and this implies that she has kryptonite weapons handy just in case she has to duke it out with say General Zod. In addition to kryptonite weakness, Superman has a weakness where magic is concerned, and as far as I know he has no power to get that annoying lasso off of him. To make matters worse for poor Clark, fighting skill does matter.

Batman is the most popular member of the Trinity because he is human, and by implication more interesting. Wonder woman is a very interesting character but as they keep increasing her powers, she becomes less human, although she is still an interesting character, probably less interesting than the character she began as. With Superman, as the character increased in power, they invented things like kryptonite to weaken him, so it is imaginable that someone like Lex (conspicuously a mere human) would still menace him.

Of course it isn't a fair fight. If Superman were allowed to discover the one rare element that makes Wonder Woman's power go away, I think he would win.

RRRR - 1/28/2013, 8:24 AM
I positive superman can beat wonder woman honestly the only true abvantage she has on him is magic. seriously most of you Wonder woman fans always say super man would lose cause he cant fight but he can he went around the world learning all types of martial art and even learned two advanced kryptonian martial arts. even if superman had moments where she had bested him it was never cause he went 100% against her, cause we all know supermans personality. but if she did she would have to face him like this: refer to this video from another debate wonder woman fans and skip to 8:42 and see all hes capable of (and this is before he become superman prime which he essentially be comes ridiculous)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyl97TG8jbA
RRRR - 1/28/2013, 8:45 AM
sorry my bad skip to 8:42 of this vid to prove my point:

http://youtu.be/oyl97TG8jbA

it explains some of the ridiculousness things he can do like move planets himself, destroy planets, can turn invisible, can dodge attacks by becoming intangible, surviving supernovas etc.
jimbojangles - 3/15/2013, 6:46 AM
very simple

Im a huge superman fan but......
your question finally answered:

superman is highly vunerable to magic: period!

just remember this modern superman is actually quite weak
simply done to make it more intresting to readers and humanise him, i welcome this.

this was done because pre crisis superman could anhilate literally anything anyone, ww would not even, not even come close to golden age superman, not ever,

but there in lye the problem, he was too powerful, it was boring someone who could never be taken out. so other than a mystical talisman used by luther in the late 40s to defeat superman they made made it the "obvious" weakness that magic is to superman nowadays.

sigh#######

saying this in a fight against non magical beings superman (current) can go further out than ww. his powers can level out a war field alot faster.

superman (current and post crisis) vs wonderwoman =

wonderwoman would win, the odds are in her favourite, this is not a bad thing but an intresting thing, this doesnt make her the worlds saviour but in a personal confrontation she'd win, compare this to luther with a embowed kryptonite glove, he would probably kill superman, but could he fend off a whole alien invasion, simply no. you must weigh this in

now pre crisis superman, dear lord, he was god!
despite the odd and not obvious weakness's he was tossing planets like marbles.

so,,,,, please consider the options a little more.

its highly complex

golden age superman was designed to be god on earth, thus almost untouchable.

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