EDITORIAL: How is The Avengers a response to The Dark Knight

Those two movies are amongst the best CBM's ever, if not the two best CBM's ever (yet) but what made them so important?

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By Osborn - 3/17/2014
HOW IS THE AVENGERS A RESPONSE TO THE DARK KNIGHT



While The Avengers came out the same year than The Dark Knight Rises and a lot of comparison have been going between those two flicks, but I personally think that The Avengers is to The Dark Knight what Bizarro is to Superman, some kind of twisted sibling. They're both incredibly enjoyable and their success seems very representative of the decade they came out !
Let's see why

THE STORYTELLING :

Both of those movies have a strong storytelling based on the pacing and the characters, plus, while they both are sequels somehow they mostly stand on their own. Some movies are all about atmosphere, visuals and a strong story (Batman Begins for example), on the other hand movies like The Avengers and The Dark Knight are more about « let's bring on as much amazing scenes as we can ! » those movies are all about inventive action scenes and great dialogue writing in the mouth of good characters, in the end we don't care that much about the overall scenario (while The Dark Knight have a stronger writing). They're both amazing action flick and they both had a huge success.



REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT?

The Dark Knight, like any superhero movie was expected to be like a great pop-corn flick, it turned out to be exactly that and a lot more, it crystallyzed the fear : the Joker is a blind terrorist, justice gets corrupt in the character of Harvey Dent, Batman become an outlaw, and spying people through their cellphones is WRONG no mattering why (Morgan Freeman said so)




But yeah, people on the boats are good, great, that's a pretty depressing movie and it rocks ! Both as the pop-corn flick moviegoers expected and as a deep great movie which manage to represent the world we were living in since 9/11.

On the other hand... The Avengers is mostly an awesome pop-corn flick incredibly lighthearted and enjoyable. That's my whole point, I think it's a response to The Dark Knight because while it is as successfull(and as good in it's own way in my opinon) it never could have work in 2008... It takes a hard build-up if you want the casual moviegoer to watch such a movie without thinking « wow... Thor/Cap/Hawkeye looks retarded ! » (well okay some thought that way)
Also The avengers has none of the deep themes of The Dark Knight, it's more like The avengers is mocking the idea of a deep movie itself.

One scene just blew my mind the first time I saw The Avengers 'cause it sounded like a nod to The Dark knight : THE SHIELD IS SPYING PEOPLE THROUGH THEIR CELLPHONES ALL THE TIME... Okay they're a big spy organization but... Hell, none of our heroes as any concern about that, neither do we ! It was a big moral issue in The dark knight here it's just... well it's just this way, deal with it, and since I've not heard of this scene that much I guess we just all dealt with it !





The Avengers is also destroying Manhattan in a playfull way in broad day light ! Like some fun reenacting of 9/11 were... Super heroes are here to save the day ! Few flicks did that since 9/11 (cloverfield, the day after) and none of them reached the hype of The Avengers, here it worked beyond everyone expectations, this led me to think that just as The Dark Knight, The Avengers had the good timing, I DON'T REALLY KNOW IF WE SHOULD BUY THIS « SPYING PEOPLE THROUGH CELLPHONES » THING THAT EASILY THOUGH.


I don't know if those flicks are the flicks we deserved but I think they were the flicks we needed at the time.
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npamusic - 3/17/2014, 7:08 AM
This article screams flame-war. WTF. I don't see how "The Avengers" is a response to "The Dark Knight", at all... in any sense of the word.

TDK came out in July of 2008, while, Marvel's Iron Man came out in May 2008, starting the foundation of a Cinematic Universe.

The Nolan films are a completely separate entity on it's own, and does not have a shared universe feel other than the fact that each film is interconnected solely because it's a trilogy.

This article really feels like a big waste of time, and it really feels like you're trying to start something / make something seem right when it doesn't even have an ounce of clarification or connection what so ever.
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:11 AM
LMFAO! No one light a cig!
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:16 AM
The Avengers and The Dark Knight are 2 TOTALLY different films. Avengers dealt with a worldwide threat. The Dark Knight handled one, repeat, ONE maniac terrorizing Gotham. Batman used the hacking of cellphones and such to find one person. He only used this ability once. He had no plans of using it over, and over again. S.H.I.E.L.D uses peoples phones as listening devices all the time. They are a worldwide clandestine organization. They are 'Big Brother'. So it makes sense that they would do tactics like that. The films are at 2 ends of the spectrum. One film was a superhero epic drawing together some great characters, the other film was the BEST interpretation of easily the most iconic superhero out there. So these 'similarities' you pose are pot. This is a waste of an article.
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:21 AM
"Also The avengers has none of the deep themes of The Dark Knight, it's more like The avengers is mocking the idea of a deep movie itself."


......How exactly is it mocking the idea of a 'deep film'?
KingNTheKong - 3/17/2014, 7:22 AM
@Pasto
Tell his ass
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:27 AM
And I honestly can't believe that you are stuck on such a mundane topic. Seriously? You made a long ass article about how 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FILMS have used the plot-point of hacking into people's personal devices to find a dangerous threat?
MercwithMouth - 3/17/2014, 7:28 AM
What did I just read?

Seriously, what the hell was that?

Flame-bait covered by a thin veil of badly researched ideas of cause and effect, and terrible comparisons of two films as alike as Scarface and Shrek.
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:32 AM
The Avengers was not and WILL NOT be a film centered to the dramatic (deep) genre of cinema. So to walk into a film by Marvel and expect to see this film with deeper hidden messages is the dumbest thing you could do. Marvel has shown us that their films are meant for good times. They are meant for you to be excited every time you see them (Hmmm, like....comics?). Christopher Nolan took those films and made them so that they were darker and more serious. Because guess what, Batman is a darker/serious character. You can't compare Marvel's films to DC's films. You simply can't. They do there own thing. Marvel is doing the shared universe, DC/WB is doing....something. Just because they are comic book companies does NOT mean they have to do the same thing at the same time. Thats one thing I believe some people on here need to realize. Just because they both print comics does not mean they have to be identical to each other.
MercwithMouth - 3/17/2014, 7:37 AM
@Pasto

I believe the TKO is complete...
MrSotoMan - 3/17/2014, 7:37 AM
Flame.......on.
H3LLBLAZER - 3/17/2014, 7:43 AM
The Average-rs is a generic, overhyped, overrated, Disneyfied kid flick, while The Dark Knight is a masterpiece. The Average-rs shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as The Dark Knight. Its an insult and a slap to the face of the film, that brought credibility to the superhero genre. TDK made people take the genre seriously.
MrSotoMan - 3/17/2014, 7:46 AM



Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:46 AM
MarkOfTheDemon
...........................................

Shu-.....shut up...
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:48 AM
This thread isn't on fire yet...





Now it's one fire.
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:51 AM


Cobie...you've got something on your lips...

Never mind, I'll get it!
MrSotoMan - 3/17/2014, 7:52 AM
The only flaw I see in Avengers is that it has a thin plot, even then if I was to say add a sub-plot of some sorts, a sort of love triangle in the midst of what is happening, or add more into the plot than there already is, then I would pretty much be derailing the movie, so would any writer.

As for comparing the two over cell-phone use, SHIELD has always been known for going to peoples private business, they are the comic book version of the CIA, they know everyone and everything.

Batman, which is how Morgan Freeman saw it, saw Batman as a billionaire trying to search for one man, but one man with this much control over the lives of million of people in Gotham is too much to handle. Years down the line though, especially in Kingdom Come, he has created over 100 bots to counter-act that idea and to watch over Gotham with 100's of Batman bots. Again, Lucius was probably dead by then, so any type of morale self value is thrown out the window.
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:54 AM
yoss
I'm a giver and receiver of tough love.....

Not the tough love you're thinking about though...
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 7:56 AM
One fire, on fire...they both work I guess.
MexicanSuperman - 3/17/2014, 8:00 AM
I thought the Avengers was a great movie when I first watched it in the theater, but it dosen't have a lot rewatch value compared to The Dark Knight at least for me. I would say I like Capitan America The First Avenger, The Incredible Hulk, and Thor The Dark World way more than I do Avengers. Avengers is a fun movie but I wish it had a little more substance.
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 8:01 AM
yoss
Lmao, you kinda threw me when you posted that long comment. I thought your account got hacked for a second.
MexicanSuperman - 3/17/2014, 8:03 AM
@Gusto, I heard Nomis is looking for a job. You should hook him up.
Pedrito - 3/17/2014, 8:08 AM
I swear, half the people who praise TDK don't even understand what truly made that movie great. They get it all wrong and they say dumb shit like TDK "brought credibility to the superhero genre."
*facepalm*
ALmazing - 3/17/2014, 8:32 AM
laughing animated GIF
TheSonOfKrypton - 3/17/2014, 8:41 AM
GizmoEl - 3/17/2014, 8:50 AM
I don't think TDK was a good comic book movie, I think it was a great film. I don't think it can be compared to Avengers since I believe them to be in different genres.

The comparisons presented in this editorial are very thin and not well put together, I don't really see the point of it to be honest.
McNyagano - 3/17/2014, 8:54 AM
Just wait until I release my Editorial on my analysis of The Avengers. Also, your article is not well put together bro. The Avengers and TDK are two different films but are amongst both the best in the genre imo.
gmoney0505 - 3/17/2014, 10:15 AM
The Avengers is a cool movie but no where near the best of comic book movies. You cant be near the best with that meh story.
kinghulk - 3/17/2014, 10:23 AM
McNyagano- when will you be posting that editorial?
KingNTheKong - 3/17/2014, 10:29 AM
I feel like @MrBlackJack just made a gif of the entire Django Unchained film and the same for Wolf of Wall Street and just cuts them and uses them when needed.
jrp6048 - 3/17/2014, 11:00 AM
@pedrito wouldn't people just praise movie on their own personal opinion of it? So your argument is not valid
McNyagano - 3/17/2014, 11:08 AM
@kinghulk

Too busy at the moment, I need to rewatch the Avengers to see if I need to make any edits or add more before posting it ool
jrp6048 - 3/17/2014, 11:14 AM
@McNy in terms of this article, seeing as you have seen Cap 2, would this argument be more valid if he used Cap 2 instead of Avengers?
GliderMan - 3/17/2014, 11:27 AM
I think A2 will be influenced by TDK.
Pedrito - 3/17/2014, 11:52 AM
@jrp6048
Using "personal opinion" to "invalidate" my argument is as ironic as it is moronic.
dethpillow - 3/17/2014, 12:20 PM
@Pasto - i don't know, i don't think TDK or Begins or TDKR is deep on the levels that a lot of people think of them. but also i guess that if something is "deep" to someone, then there.... it's "deep", you know? it's arguing with someone who says they are cold. i guess they're cold, can't really argue with that.

i think the character of Batman is really deep. in a universal and very true sense. and what happened is that Nolan did an excellent job of translating that character to a movie, and translating his issues in subtext to things. cuz, really, the good stuff about Batman isn't much dealt with openly in any of those movies. TDKR, which is my least favorite actually does the best job of doing that. but this is regarding what i find most important about Batman.

but all that stuff about NSA and all that.... that's not deep. that's "deep". haha. i'm talking about my book and don't mean that as an insult. but yeah, i agree that Nolan's stuff still did a better job of bringing the psychology of it's characters to life than Avengers did or any Hulk movie or any Iron Man movie we've seen yet. but i don't buy at all the hard line of like Nolan's here and then you guys are over here. Nolan's movies are just as much silly action flicks as any of them. surely, he broke a ceiling, but then he was like...awwwww look, another ceiling. but i do agree that Avengers and Nolan's Bat films were completely going for different things, partially based on the characters involved but more fundamentally... just going for entirely different things. and it's not really a matter of popcorn vs serious.

that's a convenient set of boxes, but it's basically untrue. except in the fact that "popcorn" is kind of a thing like being "cold". if you eat it and say it's "popcorn", there's no place to argue about that... that's what it is. becuz your experience of it is defining it. u see what i mean?

but universally, that's a cop out. a good way to illustrate, i guess, is look at an Avengers comic book. say we've got Cap, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and maybe Jan and Hank kinda pop in a little bit. they were on vacation but they just got back. something like that.

and then say you got our Avengers there going out and fighting Moses. cuz Moses is back in town and he's causing a lot of trouble and he's got Elijah and Joshua with him too and they're just going around and knocking down stop lights and stealing petty cash and making things ugly in general. and Moses is always teasing Elijah and seems almost like he wants to have sex with him. but he won't come out and say it. but in your head, you're like... i think Moses is gay, it just seems like that. and Elijah gets mad and he ends up blowing up a nuclear facility and telling Moses to leave him alone.

and this is when the Avengers realize their presence. but at first, Cap was doing mansion duty and he's lonely and no one is there for him to date. Wasp comes in and flirts with him and you're like... wow, looks like Wasp wants to have sex with Cap, but then Hank comes in and yells at her and tells her he needs help in the lab, so she goes off with Hank. and then Cap hears about Moses and he pushes the button and the whole team is off to fight Moses.

and then they fight and Avengers get pretty beaten up and Moses is beat up too, but Elijah finally loses his temper when Moses makes a joke about his ass, so he ends up punching Moses. and then Joshua helps Moses to beat up Elijah. and now the bad guys are beating each other up. and then the Avengers do this teamwork thing, but since Cap gave Hawkeye an unimportant job, Cap and Hawkeye get in a big fight and Hawkeye calls Cap a bunch of names and Scarlet Witch is just uncomfortable, and Quicksilver is laughing at them and saying if he was in charge, everyone would know their place. and then Jan starts telling Wanda that she better stay away from Cap, cuz she would be bad for him and Cap doesn't need her. and then she calls Wanda a hussy. and then Hank comes over and yells at Jan. and tells her to get away from Wanda.then next thing you know... Ezekiel, David and Job have all come down and joined up with the other biblical prophet guys and are ready to join in the fight. then the issue ends.

what a great issue of Avengers. popcorn? no. how is it popcorn? it's an Avengers book. that's what it is. it's not about Hank comoing to terms with the implications of advanced AI. it's not about Cap's issues with who he is or whatever. some of this can be touched on, but it's an Avengers book, it's about the group interacting and being Avengers. that doesn't make it "popcorn".

Implications of "popcorn" are clearly dismissive. and things don't need names or lines or broad categories like you're talking about. if it's not "popcorn", what is it? well it's an Avengers comic book. that's what it is. so on that side there's that. it's a different thing, but once u call anything a stupid name, then it's like you gotta start wondering what your getting at. like why call it a name?

there's just no such things. and Nolan's Batman films are good movies, really good ones, but i don't see them as being great. they're simplistic and kinda silly and read too much into their supposed themes and things that i don't even see as being what any movie is about. i think it comes down to a fundamental difference about what is meaningful. "themes" like the NSA and surveillance or "themes" about how fear has to do with what Gotham thinks it should've got for Christmas, that kind of stuff is part of the outward trappings of a movie. to me, at least. but it's not anything important about a movie, it's just like the accent it enjoys talking in. that stuff is important, no doubt, and it can determine if we like a thing or not, and i'm not insulting that. but that's not meaning, that's just reading the newspaper or something.

but Batman, himself, in my whole way of looking at things, there's where the meaning is, and like I said, Nolan did a great great job in being able to make that work in a movie. let's just keep our pants on tho.

i think comic book movies are almost always be impossible to actually make great movies out of. cuz they cost so much. so u gotta try and make that amount of money back. and that's gonna mean that it has to be a certain level of stupid. that doesn't mean i don't love comic book movies, but they just aren't ever gonna be able to do what is necessary for an actually great movie. i guess what i mean is, i'm trying to say.. dude, Batman is as much "popcorn" as Avengers is. it's just wearing a trenchcoat and loafers while Avengers is wearing a pullover blouse and spats. whatever. i like spats. i have fake spats, i wear them all the time. i mostly wear boots. so i guess i need spats.

but that's a better way of approaching it, i think than acting like there's some thing that everything is.
dethpillow - 3/17/2014, 12:25 PM
@Pedrito - yeah, i feel like that a lot too.

TDK isn't great becuz of the stupid boat and the NSA. or all whatever bizarre things that people say means something. well if it means something to them, it means something. i don't wanna tell them what's important to them.

but that's not really it. it was a great movie, cuz it resonated the character of Batman and showed in a great way what his personality is. and that's where you could go on for hours saying what that is... but it's basically just character, and then you add in the genius Joker and some good dialogue, and what makes it great is the dynamic between these characters.

and anything like NSA or people death boat is all just like specific things used to give a chance to illustrate the dynamic between the characters and themselves or the characters and each other. and it is drama that is driven by these characters and it unfolds to an inevitable conclusion of sorts. so that's great drama. to me that's what makes the movie great outside of what clothes it wears and structural things like good dialogue, good acting, good direction and stuff like that.
jrp6048 - 3/17/2014, 12:49 PM
Really? Pedrito moronic is saying other people's opinions is wrong everyone's allowed their own opinion
Pedrito - 3/17/2014, 1:05 PM
@jrp6048
that came out harsh. didn't mean to insult.
jrp6048 - 3/17/2014, 1:12 PM
@Pedrito yeah man I'm sorry about my last comment as well, as it was hypocritical of me to say you couldn't have your opinion as well. I do agree that the movie was great beyond what the average movie seer thinks of on it.
Pasto - 3/17/2014, 1:34 PM
deth
.........What the hell did I just read?
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