TDKR: Why Didn't Chris Nolan Care?

What should've happened but didn't.

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By ISleepNow - 10/10/2012


This movie was highly anticipated by me, I'd paid for the IMAX trilogy tickets for Aurora Theater night hours after they went on sale with the highest expectations.

Previous to this I'd gone to see the prologue when that was previewed back on December 14th and wrote a long critical review on the CBM boards. I thought Chris Nolan woulda had plenty of time to fix the problems. He did fix the voice issue (badly but at least Bane was audible) but what about the rest of the film? Did he give a f#ck? According to the news I heard the movie came in Ahead of schedule and Under budget. When Iron Man was being made back in 2008 Jon Favreau realized there were a number of scenes in the movie that just didn't work and did a sh#tload of reshoots which helped the movie tremendously. What about this film? Could any of the scenes have been improved? If it were me I woulda reshot parts of the prologue with that wimpy CIA guy that you knew Bane was going to have no problem with and replaced him with some mean looking thug. Then I woulda reshot the first scene in Wayne Manor with Catwoman because it didn't work out that well before moving on to the attack on Gotham City.

To begin with, all of the cops are Not gonna be down in the sewers at once. Maybe abunch but not all. Once they were trapped the story should have included a separate subplot about Joseph Gordon Levitt's character working with some of the good citizens of Gotham city to free the cops from the SWAT teams and Tactical Divisions trapped down below. One aspect of the scheme would be to have them dress in cop uniforms, find openings into the sewers amidst the damage caused by the explosions and replace these cops one by one. These freed policemen then begin to attack and pick off the mercenaries seemingly at random dressed as ordinary ciitizens similar to the partisan campaigns of World War II. Joseph Gordon Levitt's character gets into the habit of leaving a bat symbol chalk mark at the scene of each one he is involved with. When Batman returns he tells Gordon about Bane's fixation on the idea of allowing for hope only so he can crush it in the end. His possession of this device has given him an overriding sense that he can ultimately control the outcome of anything that they can throw at him. They realize that because of this overconfidence he will probably wait until the last minute to use the neutron bomb and set about staging the release of the citizens then launching a massive attack on his stronghold. Batman explains that he has a device that override the signal of Bane's detonator if it's close to the bomb. Gordon suggests that they track the bomb's whereabouts and have people nearby in the sewers after they overcome Bane's mercenaries equipped with these devices to prevent bane from triggering it. Batman and the forces under Gordon launch attacks against the merrcenaries blocking the tunnels and free the remaining cops and people whove taken their place clandestinely. They all are then outfitted in tactical suits with bullet resistant armor similar to what Batman wears (this way the combattants can also distinguish who is on which side) and half the force composed of the cops go to confront Bane and his forces.

Gordon tells Bane that the charade is over and to give up. Bane mokingly apologizes to everyone his actions may have inconvenienced and then orders his forces to advance and attack. With their superior firepower the forces of Bane have the upper hand until they advance to the cross street. Batman flies in and attacks the tumblers who then pursue him in a prolonged scene rather than that 'pop in', 'hop out' bullshit that we saw in the movie. At this point the second wave of forces made up of deputised Gotham citizens (Gordon jokingly tells them that they are deputized so that they aren't just outlaws like The Batman :) dressed in the same outfits as the police and led by Joseph Gordon Levitt's character swarm in from both directions of the cross street and attack Bane's forces. Many of them have slogans and added improvised customizations to their outfits that pay homage to Batman. This setup would complete the story arc for Gotham City itself by literally having a showdown between the good and bad citizens of Gotham in the streets inspired by Batman's actions.

Further changes would include deleting All scenes with Matthew Modine's character including and especially his 'death' which was laughable and I would reshoot the death of Miranda Tate as well which also didn't work. For the scenes where Bane is trying to activate the bomb's detonator I would add the detail of having Gordon's squad turning the tables on Bane and using the sewers to track it's movements and using EM devices that override the detonation signals in close proximity the way Batman does in the movie. They do this also during the big battle.

Finally I would expand Jonathan Crane's part and give him some good lines to read. They didn't give him shit for dialog or anything to work with in this movie and it was a terrible waste. They shoulda had him pull out his Scarecrow mask at least Once even if only as a joke to use it as a prop when he passed sentance on people. They coulda had him go off on people with the nerve toxin like he did in the first movie but no f*cking dice anything that good here. They should have had him commit at least commit one execution in court by putting on his Scarecrow mask, walking up to the convicted, gassing him with a massive dose of toxin, then walking back to his chair and saying something like, "Bailiff, bring in the next defendant.." You honestly Need that cause This Is a Batman Movie We're watching after all.. I guess Jonah Nolan must've been too busy working on Man of Steel to write anything good for him.

I sure hope That movie turns out good..
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Jollem - 10/10/2012, 9:56 AM
so...you didn't like the movie? gotcha :)
GoILL - 10/10/2012, 10:14 AM
It's been a long time since I've seen one of these.
RingoMoon - 10/10/2012, 10:24 AM
I agree with Modines and Talias death,Talias death more so because of how she nic caged (over-acted) the scene. But the rest of your points, in my opinion, wouldn't have helped the movie. I really enjoyed TDKR and I can admit there are some issues in it, but I can accept them. I don't think I could buy that JGL or Gordon would ask average joe to switch places with cops in the sewers or that 1000 citizens had their own customized armour when the government didn't want to spend a butt ton of money on a soldier for it, as explained in Begins.
marvel72 - 10/10/2012, 3:32 PM
@ isleepnow

watch it you can't say anything bad about tha dark knight rises,you may get strung up.
Asterisk - 10/10/2012, 3:58 PM
I hate you all.
Tainted87 - 10/10/2012, 4:27 PM
Chris Nolan saw $$$$$!
I'm not convinced he "didn't care", on the contrary, I think he was so wrapped up in his own idea of what HIS characters should do in their own little world, that he forgot what was important to them. Not just the comic book characters, but EVERYONE in the movie.

I mean come on, a terrorist bombs Gotham, kills the mayor, strands everyone on the island, and kills a scientist on television... and you're going to believe anything he has to say. Gordon's speech - it could be reasonably denied.

Then there's just the fact that people act in moronic fashion. The entire police force is going to completely give up on Bane and go chasing after Batman? The entire police force is going to go into the sewers? Incompetence. How about Selina, who thinks that somehow she can erase her identity and start over? Seriously, how hard can it be to just buy a fake identity for someone like her? The fact that that is her motivation for everything is just absurd.

Talia was horrific. Why she was even involved - I really couldn't tell you. Bane could have easily taken over her role in the film - Bane could have been Ra's al Ghul's son, and despite that alteration (pretty minor, really), it would have made a LOT more sense.

Bane could have also had a dual identity, one that could be discarded completely after he takes over Gotham.

It was just poorly written.
manymade1 - 10/10/2012, 6:41 PM
My idea is that because Nolan knew that he did such a great job with TDK, he felt like he could relax with this knowing he already made one of the greatest Superhero films ever.
jjk2814 - 10/10/2012, 7:04 PM
Chris Nolan is not a money-grubber. He made the movies he wanted to make, in a way that he and the rest of the cast and crew believed in.

God Almighty, please, please don't let this reignite the Nolanite/Marvelite bull...
jjk2814 - 10/10/2012, 7:08 PM
And I just don't see any defense for the idea that he didn't care about the fans. His movies did something that no other Batman movie bothered to do...

Read the source material and emulated it without copying or ripping it off.

Shades of Year One, Long Halloween, The Man Who Laughs, Dark Knight Returns, Cataclysm, and others are clearly represented in the Trilogy.
Jollem - 10/10/2012, 8:05 PM
@jjk2814 - well said. also, there are people who probably think it is necessary to spread their cheeks and spray their sh!t on nolan or any of his bat-films any chance they get. because, you know, there just has to be a war. there is obviously no other alternative :)
Tainted87 - 10/10/2012, 8:22 PM
I don't see much evidence that he actually cared about pleasing fans - but then, I wouldn't have that goal in mind if I was a millionaire director. Actually, I wouldn't care about pleasing fans if I was making movies out of my complex's parking lot, but you know.

I'm just convinced that Nolan had his own ideas about where the characters should go, and didn't care about what they actually WOULD do, or what any human being would do in their situations - he just followed his vision. Taking a note from Kevin Conroy's "dailies" speech years back, Nolan didn't have anyone tell him "this is stupid" - no one challenged him.
TheLoveDoc - 10/10/2012, 9:05 PM
How did he so it just for money, he was convinced to do the film just for the sake of finishing the story. The majority of people liked the film, so Nolan obviously cared. Just because someone disliked the avengers, does not mean whedon didn't care, it's just someone's opinion. From watching videos behind the scenes you can tell Nolan puts time unto his work. Every movie has someone that dislikes it, and that doesn't mean that the director didn't care about the film.
Azrael725 - 10/10/2012, 9:20 PM
I am not one for hating on peoples articles but this was a waste of space on this site. This is a total Nolan hate article. if anything edit it and put it in fan fic.
msullivan1945 - 10/10/2012, 10:12 PM
So am I correct in reading this as a crybaby notebook about how he would have done TDKR better....Using Ironman is a poor example as Ironman 2 was pretty awful. Ultimately this kid will be watching his TDKR bluray the day it comes out and still trying to pretend that he didn't like it that much. People are so desperate to not like it, it is pathetic.
Azrael725 - 10/10/2012, 10:21 PM
@msullivan: i was actually just about to make that claim as well lol
Darklypse - 10/10/2012, 11:47 PM
Brace yourself, Nolanites are here.
TheRealDorkKnight - 10/11/2012, 3:39 AM
THANK YOU! I would have wrote this article myself, I completely agree with everything you said. Nolan OBVIOUSLY didnt give to shits.. batman is by far my favourite and I am a fan of both BB and TDK but TDKR just dissapointed me...
AC1 - 10/11/2012, 5:25 AM
I agree with a lot of this article. While I half enjoyed TDKR (definitely better the second time around), it had so many problems compared to the other two films in the trilogy, and was a major step backward IMO.

I think the movie was excellent from the beginning until Bruce escapes prison, with a few exceptions (I think Alfred's departure was poorly written and all the scenes involving the nuclear bomb or Matthew Modine annoyed me). After Bruce escapes, the film standard suddenly drops.

So yeah, the film would've benefited hugely if Matthew Modine's character wasn't in it, and Miranda/Talia should've been written very differently. They should've played up the corporate rival aspects of her character, and they could've had her use her authority and power to try to ruin Gotham's economy and have the city tear itself apart, like the first film mentioned. Also, I would've had Bane be the mastermind of the plot, not some henchman. In fact, Talia could've been his pawn, and she could've turned on him toward the end as a nod to her relationship with Batman in the comics (she would've been swayed to Batman's side) and been instrumental in his downfall. She still should've died IMO, but in a more tragic way since she would've been a heroic character.

As for Jonathan Crane, just think of how much more brutal the exiles would have been if they'd been gassed by Scarecrow first? Not only would they have to try and walk across a frozen body of water, but they'd have to do it while hallucinating the crap out of everything and tripping on fear. It would have been perfect and brutal and I'm very surprised Nolan didn't think that up, considering he was most of the way there by having Crane be the judge.

And I hate the nuclear bomb plot device. In general, nukes in films are really annoying and unimaginative, and seem like a cheap way to have 'scale' in films. And for someone like Chris Nolan, who is usually such an imaginative, innovative, and powerful filmmaker, to use a nuke in his film, seemed like such a cop out.
I mean really they should've played up the riots that were supposed to have been happening in the film. It's far more tragic as a plot device, since it's basically Bane showing Batman how easy it is to bring out the worst in humanity while Batman wants to inspire goodness. And the destruction should've been by fires. I mean 'the fire rises' was said in the film, but it didn't really make sense, since a nuke would obliterate everything. To see Gotham burn slowly would've been so much more powerful and would've really tied to Bane's revolutionary characterisation.

Bane should've seemed like much more of a dictator, especially at the end of the film. He started out extremely well, but by the end he was reduced to a henchman in favour of a plot twist that was intended to be mind blowing but came across as more Shamalanian. And his death scene was an absolute joke. The death of a character like that should be powerful, hard hitting. He should've been betrayed by his own followers. He could've just died from his injuries after fighting Batman. Imagine if he failed his mission; he saw that the people of Gotham were revolting against him, and that Batman had won. There's nothing more he can do, except try to burn the city. Imagine him allowing himself to burn to death in the fires as a monument to his own failure. I know I might get some stick for this, but I'd imagine it as being similar to the death of Cutler Becket from Pirates of the Carribean 3. I mean the Pirates films are of far lesser quality than Nolan's Bat films, obviously, but the way that scene played out was the perfect way for such a misguided villain to die.



Just imagine if Bane's death had been handled like that, rather than being killed in the almost comedic fashion he did.

Really, I think the only flawless thing in this film was Anne Hathaway as Seline Kyle. I think she was perfectly cast and played the character beautifully, and the character was written well too.
MrReese - 10/11/2012, 5:28 AM
Who the [frick] cares whats done is done. Still the best CBM Trilogy hands down.
SageMode - 10/11/2012, 9:43 AM
Nolan himself said the "source material is irrelevant", and it shows in TDK and TDKR.

And it's not about igniting a Nolanite/Marvelite flame war, it's the fact that people are going to have negative criticism about Nolan's Batman films, it's not always gonna be praiseworthy. People just have to accept that fact and get over it.
GoILL - 10/11/2012, 10:51 AM
@marvel72

That describes the reaction the extreme fans of each cbm this year.


@Sagemode

"it's the fact that people are going to have negative criticism about Nolan's Batman films, it's not always gonna be praiseworthy. People just have to accept that fact and get over it".

I agree with this this is how it needs to be for each cbm.


Jollem - 10/11/2012, 2:05 PM
I think it's okay for comic/cbm fans to write about whatever they'd like. Or am I wrong?

This article offends me and makes me mad. Why did you force me to read this? Why couldn't you just do an article about marvel studios movies?


i said nothing was wrong with this article. did i say something mean and childish, like; "what the frick is this?", "this is stupid".

don't you spray at me, bossy :)
Jollem - 10/11/2012, 2:41 PM
nolan obviously included the source material in all 3 movies...
SageMode - 10/11/2012, 7:02 PM
AMERICANPSYCHO

"And really who gives a shit about the source material? The hardcore fanboys that's what. I mean, so what if he didn't follow the material, its not the end of the world."


And thats the mindset what separates the true Batman fans from everybody else. TDK on forward completely got the characterization of Batman and a few other characters wrong. And Anyone whos read Batman comic book knows this.

" Yeah yeah people hate Nolan's Batman must not be alot since 2 out of the three films made a billion."

It took TDK like 7.5 months including a re-release to break a billion and TDKR 3 months.
GoILL - 10/11/2012, 7:15 PM
@Sagemode

The time it took to make a billion doesn't matter to the suits at WB or some people on here, all that matters is that it made a billion. TDKR actually made a billion in a little under 2 months.
AmazingFantasy - 10/11/2012, 10:24 PM
Nolan is a hack.
SageMode - 10/12/2012, 12:24 AM
AMERICAMPSYCHO

The whole point is is that, IMO, Nolan's Batman films are not definitive Batman movies. Not even in the slightest. There was no point where it felt like a Batman comic book come to life, except for Batman Begins where Nolan didn't have more control like he did with TDK and TDKR. You'll find that more fans prefer the first of the trilogy than the other two because of the reason I've stated.
SageMode - 10/12/2012, 5:17 AM
SOTOJUICEMAN

Given the fact that you openly admitted in a previous article to being a Nolanite makes everything you say about his Batman films biased. So I don't hold what you say with any weight at all.
dezdigi - 10/12/2012, 1:03 PM
@sagemode,
YOU don't determine what a "real" fan is. If you don't like Nolan's movies, fine, but don't put people into categories.
Everybody has an opinion, granted, but when most websites indicate that TDKR was a critical and a financial success your bitching is all in vain. Most people that saw it, liked it. Fact. Move on.
SageMode - 10/12/2012, 5:48 PM
DEZDIGI

Unlike others, i could state proven facts of why Nolan's films are not definitive Batman movies.

So shut the [frick] up.
IronSpider101 - 10/12/2012, 7:33 PM
You people are so petty... and tiny.

They're good movies. They're nice things. It's just nice.
SageMode - 10/13/2012, 2:46 AM
AMERICANPSYCHO

Well it's clearly obvious that you don't give a shit about Batman being done right on the big screen. First you say "who gives a shit about source material", then you say "who gives a shit about if it isn't a definitive Batman movie". Some of us true Batman fans want to feel like we're watching a Batman comic book come to life in movie form, not some pretentious, watered down, tunnel-vision versions of the characters of the Bat mythos that you seem to enjoy.
GoILL - 10/13/2012, 10:26 AM
All of this real fan true fan shit is so ridiculous, I've seen people who loved or hate any cbm released this year say that to defend their position that I can't take it seriously.
dezdigi - 10/13/2012, 11:45 AM
@Sadboymode, I mean Sagemode,

We are all "real fans" on this website. Get over yourself and get on with your life. Trust me, you'll be much happier!
SageMode - 10/13/2012, 10:57 PM
SOTOJUICEMAN

I don't take you seriously due to the reason I've stated above. You're a void.

DEZDDIGI

Do you not know how to spell? Or was that a failed attempt at trying to be funny?
Speak for yourself.

PenditaMarah - 10/15/2012, 5:36 AM
SageMode

dont call yourself as batman fan.....you're not the true batman fans.at least,nolan has gave us the justice for batman film,unless you're schumacher fan boy.
Minghagz - 10/15/2012, 3:24 PM
Honestly I feel like it's more pretentious trying to delegate who is a "true" Batman fan. Anyone who is a fan is a fan in their own respects. Hell, I've read so many Batman comics that I thought did an awesome with the writing of the character and I've also read many that I thought did a shitty job. There are so many interpretations that you could debate on this forever.

Fact: TDK trilogy did well for itself financially and critically.

Opinion: I was very pleased with it and it finally delivered a tone of Batman I was hoping for since the last franchise. But I don't even want to see another Batman movie for another 15 years because I want some other DC characters on the screen. At the same time, I am sad that there will be no more Batman films for a while.
GoILL - 10/15/2012, 4:37 PM
@Minghagz

Well said bro.
batfan175 - 10/20/2012, 5:01 AM
Whiners everywhere. you don't like it, cool. I watched the film 3 times and I greatly enjoyed it; maybe it's got something to do with the fa ct that, contrary to most peopel on this site, i'm not looking for him to [frick] up so the nitpicks don't get to be full-blown criticisms of the whole movie. there is no "true" or false batman fan, just as there is no true or false religion.
IgnurRant - 11/20/2012, 3:59 AM
All the cops didn't go into the sewers. If you listened, you woud of herd that they were rounding cops up and sending them to the kangaroo courts.
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