The Influence of Ultimate Marvel on the Movies

The Influence of Ultimate Marvel on the Movies

[frick] ULTIMATE? Is putting some Ultimate Marvel in the movies a good thing or a bad thing?

Editorial Opinion
By BIGBMH - Oct 11, 2010 05:10 PM EST
Filed Under: Fan Fic

The Ultimate Marvel universe seems to cause quite a division among the comic book fan community. There are those who hate it with a passion and those like me who love at least some of it. This is like just about anything else in the comic book world. However, the thing that seems to polarize the fans the most is the influence of the Ultimate universe on Marvel movies. There really seems to be a strong belief among a section of the Marvel fan base that the Ultimate universe should have no influence whatsoever on the movies. In this article, I intend to argue why some Ultimate influence is both sensible and beneficial to translating .

To fully understand the situation, we need to answer this question: Why exactly do people hate the Ultimate universe in the first place? The answer is very simple: It's different. For some reason, a lot of people can't accept that. They view the Ultimate versions of their beloved characters as wrong. Now, if the Ultimate universe was meant as a replacement of the 616 universe, I could understand the hatred. But it's not! The Ultimate universe is a different take on familiar characters in a different world. I'll admit that I don't like everything about the Ultimate universe. For example, I really am not a fan of Ultimate Captain America's attitude and think that he's a poor distortion of the pure hearted Steve Rogers that I love. (I'm about to sort of go off on a tangent here, but go with me) Most people familiar with Ultimate Captain America know his famous line "Surrender??!! You think this letter on my head stands for France?"It's pretty amusing, but it serves to show just how different Ultimate Captain America is from the true Steve Rogers when you compare it to this excerpt from Ed Brubaker's Captain America #3.

"I've seen a lot of combat and I'd seen a lot before I got to France, but the savagery inflicted on these people...I never saw anything like it until we got to Buchenwald. That's why it galls me when I hear my own people dismissing the French as cowards. We're talking about a people who never gave up fighting the Nazi occupation. Their country may have surrendered but they didn't....So, we were proud to help them take back Paris. The victory parade came right up this way and up through the Champs-Elysees. My friends and I watched from the sidelines. It was their day, not ours. But I never forgot what they'd paid to get it which is probably why this has always been one of my favorite cities."

You can clearly see that these are two completely different men. Character differences like this are a major part of the reason why so many fans are anti-ultimate. However, it makes no sense to say that Ultimate Marvel ruins Captain America when the existence of the Ultimate interpretation has no affect on the classic Steve Rogers. Fans who don't like certain things in Ultimate Marvel can simply choose to ignore them and just read the series they like. (I read USM and pretty much ignore everything else in that universe) For some reason though, people seem to feel like Ultimate Marvel opposes classic so they channel the energy from their love for classic Marvel into hatred for Ultimate Marvel.

The problem is that people completely write off the Ultimate Marvel Universe and convince themselves that there is nothing worthwhile about it. This simply isn't true. I'll start my defense of Ultimate by taking a look at the series that started it all: Ultimate Spider-man. I could try to sum up the story behind this series, but this video does a fantastic job. So watch it. Now. Yeah, I'm talking to you, guy who was about to skip it. Watch it.



You skipped it, didn't you? Trouble-maker. Go back and watch it! (Sorry about that guys. Some people just can't follow directions!)

(The video doesn't mention how the popularity of USM grew to the point where it overtook the sales of Amazing Spider-man for a time) Anyway, as you can see, the goal of Ultimate Spider-man was simply to bring the origin of Spider-man into a modern context and do something fresh. There are changes to the story, definitely. But the bottom line is that it's the spirit of early Spider-man in the modern world. What does that sound like to you?



Exactly! So let's think about this. The new Spider-man movie is set during Peter Parker's high school years. With this movie they're going to try to modernize the early days of Spider-man, a time covered in the first few years of the Amazing Spider-man series. What should they look to for inspiration? I know! Maybe if there was a comic book series that was a modern re-imagining of the early years of the Amazing Spider-man they could partially base the movie on that. After all, this movie would be looking to achieve the same goal as this hypothetical series. Wait a second! There is a comic book series like that! A really good one! It's called Ultimate Spider-man! (oh the glory of typed sarcasm!)

You get the idea though. People are making it seem like by looking at Ultimate Spider-man, they're ignoring classic. If you take the time to think about it though, Bendis was looking at classic Spider-man when he started writing Ultimate Spider-man, so making a movie based partially on Ultimate Spider-man is pretty much making a movie that's a modernized version of classic Spider-man. That said, I don't want to see a straight adaptation of USM and I'm pretty sure they've already confirmed that it will be a mix. (Much like The Spectacular Spider-man animated series, widely accepted as the best Spider-man animated series to date)There are several things that they should take from Ultimate Spider-man such as the attention to character development, tone, and style while keeping their interpretation of characters like Green Goblin closer to their classic origins. An early, poorly worded quote mentioning how in USM, action took a back seat to teen angst made a lot of fans think that they were making the movie into some pre-teen drama in the vein of Gossip Girl, One Tree Hill, or 90210. Anyone who has read USM can testify that this is not the case. The series focuses a lot on developing Peter as a character in and out of the costume. It really puts you into his life so you get to know Peter Parker. Relationships are important. Emotions are important. Because of this, the series has a great feel that I assure you any Spider-man film adaptation can benefit from. However, I'm not going to get too much into how the new Spider-man movie should be. That's another editorial for another time.

I would briefly like to touch on how well elements of Ultimate Spider-man would fit into the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU), if Marvel was hypothetically able to get the rights from Sony and tie Spider-man in with their other movie franchises.

The super soldier serum is very significant to the MCU. Obviously, it's crucial to the Captain America story because it is what transforms Steve into Captain America. It also plays an important role in the story of Bruce Banner. The government ,in the form of General Ross, wants Banner to re-create the super soldier serum (more or less). This is the experiment he's working on when he's transformed into the Hulk. The plot of the Incredible Hulk centers around the government wanting to capture Banner and make the Hulk into a weapon. Obviously, they're very interested in this super soldier concept. Interested enough that they could have more than one group working on making it a possibility.

This is an excerpt from Wikipedia's article on something from the Ultimate Spider-man story called Oz.

"OZ is a fictitious artificial mutagen responsible for the creation of the Ultimate Marvel Universe's Spider-Man, and many other characters. The OZ formula was created previous to Ultimate Spider-Man #1 by Norman Osborn, or, more precisely, OsCorp Industries. The formula was created to reproduce the Super Soldier drug for S.H.I.E.L.D., although it had yet to be perfected. Despite this, Norman Osborn was garnering much interest in OZ, while not revealing what it actually was. The company appeared to be prosperous, but was failing due to Osborn's hastily announcing the 'miracle drug OZ' without being able to release it due to its unfinished status. As of Ultimate Spider-Man #1 animal testing had begun, with the Spider No.00 showing 'interesting developments'. This same spider is misplaced as Osborn is distracted by a phone call."

As you probably guessed, this spider goes on to bite Peter Parker, turning him into Spider-man. Norman Osborn later uses OZ on himself, transforming into the Green Goblin. (this would explain Ultimate Goblin's similarity to the Hulk, but they really wouldn't have to do that version)Even the most stubborn of you must admit that this would be the perfect way to tie the Spider-man movies into the rest of the MCU. This directly links the origins of Steve Rogers, Bruce Banner and Peter Parker! But nothing good can come from Ultimate, so I guess it would be better to make it a "radioactive" spider, right? Anyway, Spider-man isn't part of the MCU so while this clearly shows some of the good ideas that could be used from Ultimate Marvel, I can't exactly end my argument here.

Let's talk about the biggest movie on every Marvel fan's mind: The Avengers. The fan community is loving this continuity and these connections that are going on in the movies of the MCU. There's Nick Fury's appearance at the end of Iron Man, Tony Stark's appearance at the end of the Incredible Hulk, the strong presence of SHIELD in the plot of Iron Man 2 and more . What do all of these have in common? They all have to do with SHIELD putting together the Avengers. Guess where this plot originated. Yep. Ultimate Marvel. The classic plot has these characters pretty much meeting by chance. Going that route, there was pretty much no potential at all to do the kind of build-up they've been doing. Don't forget that Ultimates also tied the discovery of Captain America into the founding of the Avengers. So for Avengers, we could have the Ultimate-inspired version Marvel is doing, or we could have the classic version in which Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Ant-man, and Wasp all come together by chance (notice once again that there is no Captain America in the classic origin). I'm in no way trying to say that the Ultimates is a better version of the Avengers, but elements from the plot of Ultimates definitely translate well when you're trying to build-up a Marvel movie universe and lead into the Avengers. With the Avengers I really think that they can keep the characters very close to their classic selves even while using a premise that is very Ultimate.

Now let's sum this all up. The Ultimate Marvel universe started out as a modern re-imagining of the early years of the Marvel Universe that was intended to be more accessible to people not as familiar with the classic continuity. It's different, but it doesn't intend to replace the regular Marvel Universe, so there's no real point in hating it. Many of its ideas are beneficial to those attempting to make movie adaptations of these characters because these movies have similar goals to the Ultimate Marvel series. While it's not a good idea to base a movie entirely on Ultimate, incorporating some of Ultimate's good ideas while staying true to the spirit of the classic Marvel universe characters is the way to go.

Please check out the video version of this article here. It's kind of the abridged version and you can just listen to it if you don't feel like reading everything.

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BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/11/2010, 5:52 PM
@LEEE777, No offense or anything. I just used your "[frick] Ultimate!" line because I'm pretty sure most of us are familiar with it. I didn't mean this to be like I'm trying to argue with you specifically.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/11/2010, 6:11 PM
@Xenix, I hope it will be.
brodie999
brodie999 - 5/31/2018, 4:11 PM
@BIGBMH - Hey, Big. I've recently asked a question about how different Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum would be if Mark Millar came back to write them. And people said it'd be a lot better than they were under Loeb because he knew these characters while Loeb didn't. Maybe Millar would have had Ultron for "Ultimates 3" and/ Thanos for "Ultimatum". They'd be much better villains than Magneto and the Brotherhood of Mutants.https://www.comicbookmovie.com/comics/marvel_comics/mark-millar-could-have-done-the-ultimates-3-and-ultimatum-better-a160252
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 5/31/2018, 8:09 PM
@brodie999 - Haven't had a comment on this article in ages, so thanks for that lol. Just commented on yours!
brodie999
brodie999 - 5/31/2018, 8:19 PM
@BIGBMH - Thanks. You spread the word to all your friends, so they can comment on my page as well!!
sweetre15
sweetre15 - 10/11/2010, 6:17 PM
I've tried raising these kinds of points before specifically on the Spider-Man reboot but it goes in one ear and out the other 99.9% of the time on this site at least the times that I have tried. Anyway, I agree with what you're saying and I thank you for this.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/11/2010, 6:26 PM
@Sweetre15, Well thanks for reading and thanks for agreeing. Good to know I'm not the only sensible one around here.:) Just kidding...or am I?
But seriously, I know what you mean. It's kind of why I wrote this. It's a little bit more dismissable when you try to make a point in the comments section, so I wanted to put it all out their in a logical, semi-formal format. If people want to debate me on this, I welcome it. I respect people of different opinions as long as they back them up reasonably and argue logically/respectfully.
ThreeBigTacos
ThreeBigTacos - 10/11/2010, 6:46 PM
Finally! Thank you so much just about thought I was the only fan of the Ultimate versions on this site. You raised some awesome points, and just ignore LEEE if he comments lol But seriously awesome article, and I'm glad hat the movies are influenced by the Ultimate universe, as you said it's easier to translate, and better to combine on film. Awesome article man I read the whole thing lol
jbak368
jbak368 - 10/11/2010, 6:56 PM
I totally agree. It's pretty annoying when people just stop by to reassert that, nope, you're wrong, my opinion is right, and if they don't do what I want it'll be shit. It completely makes sense for Marvel to borrow elements of the Ultimate Universe for it's movies. Thinking otherwise is flat-out ignorant.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/11/2010, 7:03 PM
@ThreeBigTacos and jbak368, Thanks for reading!
LEEE777
LEEE777 - 10/12/2010, 1:19 AM
Hellz yeah @ BIG! Heh heh.

[frick] the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE ya rite! ; D





Cool article an all but the organic web shooters were the thing I never liked about the SPIDEY movies, and I love SPIDEY 1 & 2!!!

Why settle for SH1T when we can has GOLD?

Watered down XEROXED copies or MASTERPIECES???

Think about it and don't go crying when you get Ultimate Green Goblin! : P

Nahhh theres a reason BRANANGH's THOR's gonna be beyond epic... think about it! ; )
Paulley
Paulley - 10/12/2010, 3:13 AM
most of the more recent stuff from Ultimate line is poop. but it started off well and had a purpose to it to re-imagine the universe for a more modern generation..

i always love how everybody goes on it has too be the classic yadda yadda... but you go read the stuff made in the 1940's i dont thing much of it would translate well on film these days.

You should take elements from all the 70 years of history and but together what works.. as with all these multiverses (Movie univers, Ultimate etc) its a chance to try different things.. some things that will work in one wont work in another and visa verse.
LEEE777
LEEE777 - 10/12/2010, 4:55 AM
Paulley @ The Ultimates started out good, i read vol 1 & 2 but it was an ELSEWORLDS story... like SUPERMAN RED SON etc...

Merging the two just spoils and takes me out of the movie, I wish I never bought them two volumes now lol!

Man your right, it is total poop now, we don't need that on the big screen,,, we have enough of that with FOX! : P

Look how there making THOR... thats how you do a MARVEL MOVIE, BRANAGH knows best and no Ultimate sh1te in sight, not even FURY! : D

The less said about the animated Ultimate movies the better too, omg they was beyond bad!

Anyways @ Good article @ BIGM!
CorndogBurglar
CorndogBurglar - 10/12/2010, 5:00 AM
Its a GREAT thing! the 616 universe does a lot right, but it also does a lot wrong. same can be said for the Ultimate universe. I think its great that they're trying to take the best of both worlds.

oh, and anyone not willing to accept that there will be some Ultimate influence shouldn't even bother seeing the movie. I'd rather not see people whine and bitch on here about it for the next 8 years.
Paulley
Paulley - 10/12/2010, 6:44 AM
@LEEE777: remember that the Marvel Cinematic Universe is its own elseworld.. its not Earth-616.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/12/2010, 9:57 AM
@LEE777, Thanks for being respectful. Gotta say though, you kinda helped to prove my point without knowing it.
"Nahhh theres a reason BRANANGH's THOR's gonna be beyond epic... think about it! ; )"
"Look how there making THOR... thats how you do a MARVEL MOVIE, BRANAGH knows best and no Ultimate sh1te in sight, not even FURY! : D"




Movie Thor's costume is clearly a visual mix of classic and Ultimate, giving it a slightly more sci-fi look that makes him fit more easilly with the rest of the MCU characters.
You also didn't really counter any of the points I made about why some things work better if they have some Ultimate influence. Such as the Avengers movie.
Paulley
Paulley - 10/12/2010, 10:52 AM
i think its funny that in Thor

Asgardians are being called Aliens when they would better represented as Other dimensional beings (makes a good excuse for magic.. as apposed to alien technology in a hammer)

while in Indian Jones 4, they clearly had aliens but some idiot decided to call them other dimensional beings.. gotta love hollywood
ThreeBigTacos
ThreeBigTacos - 10/12/2010, 1:19 PM
Paulley: Indiana Jones 4 did not exist. It was really a long blooper reel and credits lol


LEEE: You do know, that the Thor movie has more tie in's with the Ultimate universe. Plus the whole thing about no SMJ Nick Fury is kinda invalid, he's still there even if we don't see him in the movie, and who knows, maybe he'll make a cameo, even if it has been denied.

I do have a question though, since the Marvel movies currently have Ultimate roots/tie ins, are you looking forward to The Avengers? Just curious, seeing as to how that's more tied to the Ultimates than the movies so far.
TheDarqueOne
TheDarqueOne - 10/12/2010, 2:56 PM
Good article. If you could just double space between the paragraphs it would look very impressive as well.

Minor point first...

"Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Ant-man, and Wasp all come together by chance"

They were originally called together for the first time by the Newsboy Legion. Kids called them together. I know the story has been retold many times in many ways but that was the original.

The vast majority of the time I spent reading comics involved the classic 616 people. When I actually first read the Ultimates it did not do anything for me. I was impressed with the story and the more realistic version of the characters but it did not thrill me.

But I ended up reading more as the line went through it's ups and downs. They ended up holding my attention just as well as the more mainstream 616 titles.

So much of the history of the 616 comics is rooted in stories for children. Since both the movies and comics themselves are aimed at a slightly older audience now I think they have to update a fair bit. I would rather they use the Ultimates stuff to do that than to just make it up.

If Hollywood people were adding all the modernizing elements I think the movies would suffer. A lot.
dlineman517
dlineman517 - 10/12/2010, 6:49 PM
love this article... I'm a big fan of both the ultimate and classic universe and think marvel is doing a great thing by blending the two

@Lee-what do you mean by why settle for shit when you can settle for gold? what makes either universe better than the other? some of the stories which came from the ultimate universe are on par with any of the classic stories by mixing them you can get the best of both universes brought to you on screen with out messing with the in-comics continuity
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/12/2010, 7:40 PM
@TheDarqueOne, Thanks for the tip. I jujst made the change. Thanks for correcting me too. I'm not sure but weren't they trying to reach the Fantastic Four when the signal got diverted and recieved by Hank and Jan? My main point is that the team as a whole came together because of one event (with some chance involved). It wasn't planned or the culmination of anything.
Ibz
Ibz - 10/13/2010, 3:28 AM
great article dude, USM bought me and a whole new generation into comics, USM was the first comic i had read in my life that got me interested in to comics and i dont totally love the ultimate universe as a whole a lot of the time its a load of rubbish but it does have some great ideas the movie can use to create there own universe
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/13/2010, 7:10 AM
@Ibz, I give USM about 90-95% of the credit for getting me into comics. I was a late-comer. My first time reading it was the trade paperback of volume 13, the hobgoblin saga. I loved it, even though it was a really different take on the goblins, so I went back and read the whole series. From there I branched off into other stuff while still reading USM. I've always felt a very personal connection to the series because of that.
Ibz
Ibz - 10/13/2010, 10:20 AM
@BIGBMH, i have only been in to comics for 3 or 4 years, and a lot of the stuff USM was easy to relate to for us teens, but i do understand why people have such hate for it, ultimatum and jeph loeb ruined it even more and especially hate what they did with quicksilver and scarlet witch, its just creepy! but the idea of people not believing thor as a god is a good idea would work out perfectly on the bigscreen
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/13/2010, 11:28 AM
@Ibz, Ultimatum! Oh gosh! That's one of the worst comics I've ever read. Just ridiculous. It basically felt like a nightmare story and just an excuse to kill a bunch of people. So glad they didn't touch Ultimate Peter Parker. I agree on the Thor thing too.
Paulley
Paulley - 10/13/2010, 12:26 PM
jeph loeb ruined Ultimate Universe with Ultimates 3 and, all the crap that led to and included, ultimatum.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/13/2010, 1:15 PM
I'm pretty sure Bendis came to him and was like "You're not touching my series." Not too much has changed in USM aside from Johnny Storm and Bobby Drake living with Peter. I actually enjoy the dynamic.
Eviltwin
Eviltwin - 10/15/2010, 4:56 PM
@ Bigbmh

Well written article. However, your are 100% wrong with one thing:

"Why exactly do people hate the Ultimate universe in the first place? The answer is very simple: It's different. For some reason, a lot of people can't accept that. They view the Ultimate versions of their beloved characters as wrong."

This statement is your opinion, not fact. It has nothing to do with different, but for the fact that Marvel thinks it has to keep everything 'fresh' and starting at number 1's all the time in order to attract new readers, because the little bastards of today are too stupid,lazy, and have no attention span to go pick up and back track a comic if they were interested in one.

People hate the Ultimate comics because their existence is insulting!

When I started collecting, I was interested in the characters, WANTED to learn more about them, and went and bought back issues. Now, kids just pick up a "Ultimate" comic all the while knowing nothing of the actual one, and taking it as the real thing.

The fact is, the Ultimate comics were a way for Marvel to bring in new readers (as they lost a lot of old ones back in the day and went bankrupt), and start making money again.

They also keep giving the excuse of 'alienating' readers with high numbered issue counts. This is all just bullshite! If somebody with a brain on their shoulders actually wanted to get into a comic, it wouldn't be hard with trade paperbacks these days.

People could argue that they like the Ultimate comics better because they are "modernized". This too is bullshite! I collect Amazing Spider-Man and Captain America, not once to I see anything that isn't current and up to date. I see people using the internet, I see people with updated cell phones, and on, and on, and on.
BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 10/17/2010, 6:19 PM
@Eviltwin, a valid point. I wouldn't say I was "100% wrong though" I didn't mean this is why every person who hates Ultimate hates it. However, there are a lot of people who hate it because it's different. As for your point about the accessibility of Ultimate vs Classic, I think you're looking at it to much from you're point of view.
"When I started collecting, I was interested in the characters, WANTED to learn more about them, and went and bought back issues. Now, kids just pick up a "Ultimate" comic all the while knowing nothing of the actual one, and taking it as the real thing."
First, you were interested in the characters already. Ultimate is an attempt to get people interested in the characters. I for example got into Ultimate Spider-man before I started reading Amazing and other stuff from the Marvel universe. I read one volume and that got me interested. I'm the type of guy who wanted to read the whole series, so I did and eventually started getting it monthly. It's much more difficult to track down every trade paperback of Amazing Spider-man from its beginning to present day. Try walking into a Barnes and Noble and seeing how much ASM there is. Huge issue number are a turn-off for people who are not yet into comics and don't have the love or interest to try to spend a lot of time tracking stuff down.
About the point of Ultimate comics being modernized, it's less about the running series compared to now than it is about the origin stories that came out in the early 60's compared to the ones done in Ultimate in the early 2000's. With Spider-man it's also the fact that Peter Parker hasn't been in high school since the 60's while he has been for the entire USM series.

Eviltwin
Eviltwin - 10/19/2010, 2:48 PM
@BIGBMH

Again, it has NOTHING to do with being different. There are so many things out there in the way of variations of something (examples: What If?, Elseworld's), that your answer of "because it's dfferent" is invalid. People hate the Ultimate universe because it isn't necessary.

"As for your point about the accessibility of Ultimate vs Classic, I think you're looking at it to much from you're point of view." I'm an 'older' comic book fan at 38 yrs old. So I have the advantage of seeing stuff come and go longer than you have. That being said I have grown up with regular Marvel and have seen the Ultimate stuff come along, so I see the whole picture clearer. You on the other hand have only started with the Ultimate, I think I have a more balanced look at it than you do. Your not seeing the forest through the trees so to speak.

"First, you were interested in the characters already. Ultimate is an attempt to get people interested in the characters. I for example got into Ultimate Spider-man before I started reading Amazing and other stuff from the Marvel universe. I read one volume and that got me interested." If there were no such thing as Ultimate, you would have NO choice but to read the regular Spider-Man comic if you had an interest in it. A good character and it's good stories are what should sell a book, not a gimmick like Ultimate.

"It's much more difficult to track down every trade paperback of Amazing Spider-man from its beginning to present day. Try walking into a Barnes and Noble and seeing how much ASM there is. Huge issue number are a turn-off for people who are not yet into comics and don't have the love or interest to try to spend a lot of time tracking stuff down." First off, you don't NEED to buy everything from the beginning to present day. It's not that difficult at all to find AMS trades, I can go into any comic store or Chapters and see tonnes of them. Even if you can't find them in a store, there is still EBay, Amazon.com, or so many others. Your making excuses. You still didn't say why huge number issues are a big turn off. Amazing Spider-Man was in the 200's when I started collecting it, that 'big' number NEVER turned me away, it made me want to read all the stories that I had missed.

"About the point of Ultimate comics being modernized, it's less about the running series compared to now than it is about the origin stories that came out in the early 60's compared to the ones done in Ultimate in the early 2000's. With Spider-man it's also the fact that Peter Parker hasn't been in high school since the 60's while he has been for the entire USM series." NOBODY wants to see him in high school! Nobody wants to see that anymnore, it's been done to death, time to move on.





BIGBMH
BIGBMH - 4/25/2012, 9:49 PM
Oh. Never responded to EvilTwin's last comment. Might as well do it now.

"Again, it has NOTHING to do with being different. There are so many things out there in the way of variations of something (examples: What If?, Elseworld's), that your answer of "because it's dfferent" is invalid. People hate the Ultimate universe because it isn't necessary."

Well, exactly how necessary is it to have 3 different Avengers teams, all with their own series? How about Avenging Spider-man? There are a lot of thing comic book publishers do that aren't necessary. Those don't inspire the kind of hatred that the Ultimate line does though. When I said people hate it because it's different, I believe I was referring more to using Ultimate Marvel as a basis for the movie adaptations. "Oh, he better not have the Ultimate costume! that sucks!" Comments like that reflect a dislike for something that is presented as an alternative to the established version. Cap without wings? Oh no! That's ultimate! What if and elseworlds don't have any chance of being the basis of a movie adaptation. People know ultimate is prominent enough that there is that possibility.

"I'm an 'older' comic book fan at 38 yrs old. So I have the advantage of seeing stuff come and go longer than you have. That being said I have grown up with regular Marvel and have seen the Ultimate stuff come along, so I see the whole picture clearer. You on the other hand have only started with the Ultimate, I think I have a more balanced look at it than you do. Your not seeing the forest through the trees so to speak. "

I'm not so sure that you have a more balanced look. Your position comes with its set of own biases. You have your own story of how you became a comic book fan and the series you loved. Most people don't come at it that way. It's not like I'm completely immersed in the Ultimate Universe and I understand the history of how it came about. However, I can personally attest to the benefits of the Ultimate Universe that you seem unable to see just as well as you're able to describe how you got into comics without it.

"If there were no such thing as Ultimate, you would have NO choice but to read the regular Spider-Man comic if you had an interest in it. A good character and it's good stories are what should sell a book, not a gimmick like Ultimate."

True, if ASM was all there was, it would be the only thing I would possible pick up. However, it's not like I was sold on the "gimmick" of Ultimate Marvel. I had no idea what the title Ultimate Spider-man meant. I just saw this trade paperback there. It wasn't until afterward that I looked it up and understood that it was an alternate universe.

"First off, you don't NEED to buy everything from the beginning to present day. It's not that difficult at all to find AMS trades, I can go into any comic store or Chapters and see tonnes of them. Even if you can't find them in a store, there is still EBay, Amazon.com, or so many others. Your making excuses. You still didn't say why huge number issues are a big turn off. Amazing Spider-Man was in the 200's when I started collecting it, that 'big' number NEVER turned me away, it made me want to read all the stories that I had missed."

Like I stated before, I'm the type of person who wants to know the entire story. So, while I wouldn't have needed to get the whole ASM series, it's something that I enjoyed doing with USM. Seeing that the series wasn't that far in and that the bookstore had every previous volume meant that I could catch up in a reasonable amount of time. It's much more convenient than trying to order this stuff online. You still seem to be coming at it from a dedicated fan's point of view with a vested interest. I was just some kid who found a cool series in a bookstore. As for large issue numbers, I really do believe it's a barrier for people not familiar with comics. I wouldn't just start watching Supernatural now since it's on episode 145 because it feels like there's a lot of important story there that I would need to know to fully understand what's going on. If you don't know anything about comic books and you see that a series is on issue 576, it's not as welcoming as issue 13. How much could you have possibly missed out on in 12 issues compared to 575?

"NOBODY wants to see him in high school! Nobody wants to see that anymnore, it's been done to death, time to move on."

That seems to be your opinion. How has it been done to death when the classic comic didn't spend much time on it, the movie didn't spend much time on it, and most of the animated series take place after high school?
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