This is one of the few gripes that I can agree on being argued, it is a very good point, if it is what actually happened. Why would Spock reveal details about the future? We can start arguing theories of relativity, we can start debating concepts in determinism and we can breakdown quantum paradoxes as laid out by Stephen Hawking. But none of that is necessary.
First off, this is (and will always be) Science Fiction, it is not always routed in provable science, or even in theoretical sciences for that matter. I agree that Star Trek (“usually”) tries to base itself in workable hypothetical science, imagination come to life; but that’s as far as I’ll go. A common example that all of the Trek series and films use to prove you have to accept it purely as Sci-Fi: Sound in space
, for starters.
Another more specific example would be the use of Tachyon particles; used in countless episodes, and Trek films. A particle stated to be hypothetical, not theoretical, traveling faster than the speed of light. Also completely non-existent in reality (Earth-616 for all of the comic folk reading this). Not existent even in theory on the standard model in physics because it would break the existing rules of causality and special relativity. The fastest particle in physics that does not pick up mass in the Higgs field, going all the way back to the Big Bang is the photon, which simply travels at 186,000 miles per second, per second, without picking up perceptible mass as it traveled through this field. For those that want to be more technical in this answer, it travels 299,792,458 meters/second (used to measure E=MC squared; 'C' equaling the speed of light measured in meters).
Furthermore, this film is essentially, and foremost based on TOS (Short hand for Star Trek, The Original Series, 1966-1969)
. Which means the bulk of rules that are made up, bent and broken, are usually based on the haphazard manner Kirk actually ran his crew and missions during TOS; including the TOS films.
Lastly and more specific to this part of the argument, Spock didn't actually give any details. He didn't state how his crew defeated Khan originally; at least not on screen. Alt-Spock asked, but we don't know what was said; after all, Enterprise vs. Reliant inside a Nebula is not at all similar to this situation.
This isn't really a Wrath of Khan remake...
Spock Prime didn't tell Alt-Spock, “…You’re going to die, and by the way do you have a Genesis Device? You’re going to need it to come back to life.” He didn't actually give up any details. You can argue that his comment about Khan being the most dangerous foe they encountered was detail enough; your thinking would actually not at all be accurate or true. He gave Alt-Spock a “Captain Obvious” answer in a cryptic manner. What Alt-Spock already knew, Spock Prime simply validated his concern. Base this problem purely on observed, not presumed conversations. Spock Prime didn't reveal anything more than what Zock (Zachary-Spock) already knew... Khan was no F’ing joke.
This film is a combination of events from "Wrath of Khan" familiar to the fandom with most of the concepts here being from TOS's first encounter with Khan.
This is another argument that should be debated, absolutely, but not on a fanboy rage forum. The first film demonstrated a formula for this scenario that was theoretical. It was also put into use as a major plot point to deliver Scotty and Kirk back onto the Enterprise. Another "Ode to the Miracle Worker". Scotty makes a comment during Into Darkness about his frustration with his theories and formula’s being stolen and weaponized by Starfleet. This isn't really an argument anymore about “Where the hell did that tech come from?” This argument now should be more toward the concept of “Why do we need starships?” The answer is almost completely obvious. This isn’t Stargate, it’s Star Trek and the focus isn’t using this kind of tech to travel instantaneously. The easiest rebuttal to this is simply, the tech was extremely experimental and possibly perfected by Khan. But to stay true to my commentary above we only observed Khan use this tech once; from context in the film, we know he was literally awakened to help design and perfect new tech and strategies for war. I can speculate the above because of that context and because we know there was already an early aspect of this technology setting a precedent in the first film.
This has been taken extremely out of context from a comment Bones made in the film. Bone’s has always been unapologetically satirical and sarcastic. He’s comedy relief steeped in reality. The least likely to let his flights-of-fancy carry him away into the insane behaviors that we see Kirk usually thrust the Enterprise into. Yet Bones is the Medical version of the “Miracle Worker” that Trek fans have experienced since the inception of the franchise. Whether it’s a Deus Ex Machina-like particle, technology or random new way to convert a tricorder or replicator, Trek tends to find a way. This isn’t new. The crazed so-called fanboy-elite have been arguing Bones removed Khans blood and infused it into Kirk. This simply is not true. A lot of time passes from one medical procedure to the next. It would be short sighted to simply assume it was done “A-La-Bram-Stoker’s-Dracula” blood transfusion style; literally pumping it out of one person, and directly injecting into the other.
This whole aspect of the movie is also trying to pay tribute to a beloved creature from the original TOS, the Tribbles. Losing sight of that cool nod to the past is a bit of an injustice to the furry, humping-and-reproducing-like-rabbits, little balls of awesome. The Real arguments here, in minutiae, is simply if the blood from Khan's other 72 crewman could have been used to save Kirk, but because only Khan's was tested, there was no proof to suggest their blood was as applicable. Aside from the obvious state of plot used to create drama.
Where Was The Rest Of Starfleet?
Seriously? Sure let’s have this discussion, but don’t forget how many times it’s pretty much a focused bubble of just the Enterprise. State of Plot and Speed of Plot notwithstanding; Trek has usually broken down its entire fleet to maintain the illusion of the bubble for the purposes of dramatic elevation in any scene. If the Fleet would have been there to save the day, it would have been uncharacteristic of Trek. How often has the Enterprise fallen from the sky or been in earth proximity defending against a threat, by itself? This argument shouldn't even be here, if anything the argument should be, "Haven’t we seen various ships fall into the atmosphere already?" In the end, we have, but nothing with the glorious carnage and Armageddon-like destruction we got from this film. The most basic breakdown of this is (simply) Admiral Marcus is in control of the fleet and didn't assign other ships be near giving opportunity to be witnessed in his crimes. Most of Starfleets ships are usually out exploring elsewhere, sitting in Memory Alpha
, @ Deep Space K7
in the Eta Eridani border by the neutral zone, which is near Klingon Space (the Omego Leonis Sector); The flight is just out there...in any number of other locations in space exploring
Admiral Marcus Doesn't Make Sense!?
A corrupt power hungry military figure trying to tie up loose ends (frantically) is supposed to make sense? Even when the admirals plans were completely ruined by someone he unleashed (in the first place) superior to him in every way, started to bite him in the ass? I can’t imagine how else someone in this position, coming apart at the seams, is supposed to handle himself.
This character is another example of an early short-sighted Starfleet admiral gone horribly wrong. This timeline is not the same as the original and many times in TOS and TNG (The Next Generation; for those not familiar) we saw the effects of changes in the timeline that made Starfleet almost completely setup as warmongers. While we don’t have this completely in this timeline, we do have a lot of the characteristics Kirk had against the Klingons displayed in Marcus. It’s not the same emotional content we got used to over a period of 3 years with TOS, Wrath of Khan or the killing of Kirk's son in Search for Spock. But it is a sensical addition to another character without having to rehash the well known, “been there, done that - I HATE ALL KLINGONS!” bullshit we saw spread almost across five trek films.
Marcus was a corrupt Admiral, who had abused a tool he couldn't control; who broke away and began to revolt against him. Khan used tactics against Marcus that made the situation exceedingly more difficult for the Admiral to cover up his crimes and blatant disregard for Starfleet’s directives.
Marcus was also completely ruthless in his attacks against the Enterprise, which made it much more appealing to see in terms of conflict. It gave Kirk something to fight for and it revisited his old sentiments of “I don’t believe in a No Win Scenario” that goes all the way back to the heart of his character; from the Kobayashi Maru, to his normal nonchalant loss of red shirts in TOS. Marcus helped forge a more mature Kirk through adversity, more than the one we’ve normally seen. Which brings me to…
Alice Eve, Carol Marcus, Apparently Half Naked For No Reason!?
Kirk, since the beginning of Trek, since the Skirts in TOS, to the films; has been a Space-Slut. He always has been. This is a character flaw developed into Kirk based on the climate of the male ego in the 60’s during the inception of the character. While Trekkies want to be purists and raise Kirk onto a pedestal, the fact remains Kirk is a complete douche bag. “SACRILEGE MACHO! SACRILEGE!” is what you might say and my reply is, “ORLY!”
Let me digress for a moment. Into an Editorial Note on my own past:
In my travels and “paying my dues” line of work I’ve built and worked on conventions for years and I’ve had the pleasure of working with Shatner, his lovely wife, been to his home, ridden one of his horses and have had various conversations and a couple of dinners with him and other cast members many years ago. In fact, one of my most cherished memories and early convention stories in one of my books is about my first time meeting Shatner.
Something I experienced when I was seven years old. Trying to get Shatners signature on my original script of the pilot from TOS, "The Cage" (the episode containing a smiling Spock and absent Cpt. Kirk). I was also trying to meet Kenneth Johnson (the creator of “V”) at the same event and both he and Shatner expressed how much of a slut his character was and still is (at that time 1986). I really shouldn't have to digress into my own experience with the man; who has consistently expressed his own (profoundly) insane levels of wisdom (and ego) about his own character to the fans. To explain, what we already know, that Kirk is a dick, a douchebag, a poon-hound.
However, I know this fandom well enough to know someone will ask "How do you know! You probably don't know science!?"...
This is me descending into the same tactics to prove my point. That said. Shatner himself stated, in his books talking to fans, in his gestures in the films and even in TOS; that Kirk’s character is a douche bag womanizer and relatively proud of it. Shatner does this with a very “come at me bro” mentality toward the subject.
We see this In Kirk in the first reboot. We see this again in Into Darkness, but we also see Kirk's maturity climb significantly away from that persona in this film. Slowly, but climb none-the-less. Alice Eve nearly naked is just a footnote on that path for Kirk, developing away from that person. But we still need to see some of it to know where he came from.
The above is the intelligent, eloquent and thoughtful rebuttal to this argument. The next comment has nothing to do with the above, and is far from eloquent.
“…Because the Carol Marcus is HOT!”
The film needed to throw in some T&A. If you want to complain about T&A go complain to your mommies: “Mom, that evil JJ guy made this part of my body hard again, by flashing some boobies!” as you point to the genital area of your Kirk doll, to express your problem. Go ahead, but this argument is somewhat pointless. The reboot has TOS based skirts to continue paying homage to the original series. All reflections of the time period and the objectification of woman from the 60’s. Not because it is a necessary thing, but because it’s a nod to the original. Get over this. This is truly the argument of the virginal, not the whimsically clever or inquisitive.
Benedict Cumberbatch Does Not Look Like He’s Indian, Because Khan Is Based On An Indian; His Last Name Is Singh!
Neither did, listen to the name people, use your “hooked on phonics, RICARDO GONZALO PEDRO MONTALBAN Y MERINO - He was born in Mexico to Castilian Spaniards. Montalban is nowhere near Indian in descent. Not at all! While Wrath of Khan is by far my unadulterated favorite Trek film, as it is for many purist fans, I actually thought he was too over-the-top as the villain. But I still loved him for his poetic ovations just the same. Cumberbatch was a pure villain; I could care less if he actually looked like he was Indian. Most people have never referenced Khan as Indian at all anyway. They simply reference him as an amazingly cunning adversary to Kirk. Cumberbatch pulled all of this off in spades. He demonstrated a stout and distinct blasé attitude. Almost passive-aggressively displaying, “Do whatever you want to me, you can’t hurt me, I’m smarter, superior and I’m going to win!” In his stoicism; from context, he obviously would place himself at someone’s mercy if it meant saving his crew. He almost has the same misunderstood interpretation parallel to MAN OF STEEL’s Zod.
Fanboys are suffocating, trapped in their need for old versions and perceptions, wanting to see the same damn thing over and over again. I’m a purist fan. I love the original. Yet, I’m happy to see a different interpretation that was not what I’d expect. The only real argument here that I would say should be debated as a weird plot point by the writers, “Why would Khan place his people in torpedoes?” That’s pretty much what I would want clarification of in the film. That was an obvious state of plot issue. What is called in the industry an “Action point” something that happens every 10 pages of script to elevate or create drama, action, an explosion, a plot twist of some sort. It’s a weird one, but not one that ruins the film. Khan isn’t Sci-Fi Jesus, he obviously made a few mistakes, otherwise, he would have won.
Kronos versus Qo’noS...
I grabbed my friends when this popped up and yelled at the screen too, I’m sure a lot of us did…”Hey! They misspelled Qo’noS! Oh Well…” That’s as far as I cared. Me? I look at this as a Klingon version of the spelling versus a Terran version of the spelling. Could they have written it on the screen in Klingon lettering (KLI pIqad) then morphed it into English in the familiar spelling, followed by an English translation, sure! That would have been fine; but not really a necessity and cumbersome. I can understand this as an argument, but this is a nitpick and that’s pretty much it. Even if a slip of the mind by the writers and was an unrealized misspelling, it doesn’t hurt the movie at all.
Minor Note: If you turn the subtitles on the Blu-Ray edition on, it also spells it "Kronos". If you’re geek enough to know some Klingon or have played word games in Klingon (I do), then you already know that there are other examples of traditionally spelled words using the “Q” that have been interchanged in the series and films with a “K”. Most likely because someone made a typo and the production writers just decided to rectify it later on or didn't care to fix it and it became canonical later on. Ka’plah and Qapla’ are examples of this.
This has gone as far as trying to get research engineers to explain why a realistic situation like this wouldn't work. Which first of all is pretty much incorrect on a variety of levels. The Engineer has a few points right, sure, but it's hubris to presume his own view as absolute, especially in the presence of historical facts.
We can argue a variety of plausible situations that make this believable and realistic, but that is not necessary. I could argue this from a physics standpoint toward a realistic; not just a believable point of view. I’ll be starting my Ph.D in Physics next year at Columbia GSAS, but this need not be a pissing contest of credentials. In the end it’s Science Fiction.
While the physics and feats of engineering needed to make such thing real are phenomenal, it’s not impossible. Why don’t we make arguments against Warp Travel? A hypothetical bubble surrounding an object in space and time, created by a warp field, that collapses in the rear and expands in the front of said object; propelling it at faster-than-light speeds. We accept a ship that is traversing space, shielding itself from explosions matching Supernova tonnage (tonnage in the octillions, that’s 28 zeros folks!) But we of course argue when a craft of such extreme engineering feats goes under water? Please go F*** yourself with your pitiful argument.
Random Note: You guys do know that we have ships that can go underwater right? They've been around since the first one was designed in 1850 and popularized in warfare during World War I. OK, just making sure. It’s not at all implausible that a ship that predominantly uses a ridiculous variety of force fields in the form of "shields" could easily withstand the pressures of the “water”, let alone a ship created 300 years from now.
I've seen the other arguments fanboys have made rebutting the plausibility of the Enterprise under water; stating we don’t know the chemical composition of the water, etc., etc.. Sure, that’s one way to go, but I don’t need that argument to go against this extremely lame excuse for not liking this movie. Let me explore this a little more, with a slightly apples to oranges argument that didn't go crazy into detail over the pressures of compounding depths with mass displacement. Voyager (VOY), went into Fluidic Space and didn't really provide any arguments or issues. Here we’re talking about a compositional fluid that is organic and arguably denser than liquid water. Granted, Voyager was much more advanced then the Enterprise as a Science vessel, however, the show pretty much let you accept the fact it could exist in this space without being crushed by the pressures of a universe completely made up of fluid. Why? Because it’s Sci-Fi people! Why get this stupid over a simple argument. The real argument here is “How did the Enterprise get underwater undetected?” Since we don’t see the ship arrive, we have to speculate the alien civilization was no where within view of a ship (that size) coming down from the sky; which is of course hard to swallow. But to be honest, who cares!!! It was a wonderfully grandiose scene that gave us scale for the ship, coupled with the orchestrated music, to deliver an epic piece of visual story telling.
This has become a whole other animal unto itself. Let me make it simple… It’s a subtitle, the colon is not necessary as the title is not a form of grammar being used under normal structural conditions In a sentence. It’s a piece of font art. So it can be capitalized or not at all. There are valid points as to why this should not be capitalized; however this is one of those arguments that I look at from a very distinctly negative point of view.
People who use the “Grammar Nazi” argument to attempt at pointing out an issue with a typo, a perceived grammatical issue and/or their perception of a misused piece of punctuation; are the signs of people with weak arguments. People that need to nitpick to validate some form of an argument against someone else. It’s the “Discredit this guy!” argument. Everyone, me included, get sucked into arguments at one point or another in our daily lives. Whether those arguments are debates with simple banter or heated disagreements. We psychologically will use persuasive clauses to support our claims to our points of view. To either convince the opposing person to our point of view or to cause the opposing person to lose the argument and be perceived with less validity for their points of view. We even will go as far as reductio ad absurdum in our ventures into persuasive clauses to make any point toward our claim (the general point of this editorial-rant). I’m writing a different article about the “Lies Comic Book Fans Tell” (commutable to Sci-Fi fans as well, to all fandom really) where they’ll make up, or "fake-it", toward persuasive clauses just to win an argument.
My point here is simply, make a case in your persuasive argument based on your desire, need or agenda, without the need to use someone or something else to validate those desires and needs. You’re argument is stronger this way and is not as petty. If you’re argument is not strong enough, just accept you have no argument. Don’t let petty human nature get the better of you. If you simply don’t like something, say you don’t like it. Don’t try and diminish the argument to a stupid issue over a grey area in English Lit. 101 because you dislike this movie. There’s nothing wrong in saying “I don’t like this movie...” there is something very wrong in saying “I don’t like this movie because Wikipedia says that the 'I' from 'Into Darkness' should be lower case…boo those damn writers, and boo Abrams!” This just makes you look stupid and shows you have nothing at all to say for yourself. To a degree most of the people that use this form of persuasive reductio ad absurdum are mindless lemmings. You are Sci-Fi fans and among the smartest of fandoms, if not at least the most scientifically inclined (you'd hope or think); So display that intellect! Don't be rats caught in a pied-piper melody spun by tirading idiots.
Was He Khan? Was He Not Khan? Who The F*** Is He!?
This is among the dumbest of the arguments against the movie. It’s born from rabid fans themselves prior to the film releasing, in a usual fan frenzy. Presuming to know what the film makers are going to do or should do. This is a problem born of the internet culture all of our fandoms have lived within for a long time. It’s not the film makers fault that insane fanboys went crazy with every tidbit of information they could find online; looking for random character name clues on imdb. Trying to figure out who’s the villain. This is simply a fanboy frenzy over one tidbit of info that drove a large group of fanboy-elites mad when the reality of what was on the screen broke their fantasies.
Breaking the Prime Directive...
This is among the easiest to rebut, why? I already said above this is purely based on TOS. People may want to argue this film is all about Wrath of Khan…No. This is based on TOS. Meaning we get to see Abrams interpretations of the haphazard nature of Kirk and his crew, experiencing a variety of known scenarios (to the Trek audience) differently in Kirk's expected future history; as it unfolds. Not only do we get that aspect of Kirk, we get an alternate timeline version of Kirk to boot. He virtually broke the prime directive in every episode as well in the films. To Kirk life was more important than a guideline, which is exactly how he treated and interpreted the Starfleet directives as - a guideline. If you don’t understand this about Kirk you really can’t call yourself a Trekker, to which I’d say “Get The F*** out of my house!”
The real argument here is Spock himself arguing about the Prime Directive when he's in the Volcano. This is easy to argue, it’s simply a break in the understanding of logical and critical arguments by the writer. I could speculate that it’s not a mistake of the writers understanding of logical arguments. But simply his subtle way of starting to show a pattern of behavior that Spock is undergoing which is not at all logical. Eventually leading to the most argued point in the film - his crying out “KHAAAAN!”
If any of you follow Orci's work, you'd know the man can write logical and critical thinking circles around the most avid and keen of mind. Chances are he may have dumbed this down a bit too, making it approachable and more mainstream worthy. There is nothing at all wrong with that. We should want to embrace more people loving our fandom, it means more money into the pockets of those in control of giving us more of said fandom. If they can't attract a wider audience, why should or would they make more!?
This is the an argument I have also made because at first glance this moment in the film made no sense to me. My main point in my original argument, Zock lost his mother, his people and his planet in the first film and he really didn't show emotion then; even though Spock Prime argued the contrary. Unless you argue Zock whopping Kirks and other Vulcans asses is his general emotional response, he really didn't display much emotion if at all. When I first saw this scene in the theaters my reaction wasn't actually the same as most fanboys - raging. I was actually glad.
For me, it was a great way to tribute the original from the point of view of an alternate timeline. After seeing the film again, of course, many more times with the Blu-Ray; I could see all the breadcrumbs the writers left in terms of how Alt-Spocks character is developing, on the human side. From the very opening of the film, his willingness to sacrifice himself; to the scene where he momentarily mind melds with Pike before he died. Giving him the experience and understanding of fear, loss (again), sadness and loneliness. We had already seen a break in his psyche in the first film, when Kirk pushed his buttons (seemingly his mother). This film demonstrated a lot of turmoil in Zocks life allowing him to grow emotionally. Many Trekkies simply refuse to accept this. Here is my final point. I've pretty much broken it all down, I’ve been realistic with unrealistic issues. Here is what it all builds up to saying.
This is not a movie for the Trekkie/Trekker fans…Not by a long shot!
Leonard Nimoy voiced his thoughts toward Trekkies/Trekkers, if they didn't like the movie (while appearing on SNL):
"...To not like it would make them dickheads!"
These films are this franchises Lazarus pit. It has returned life to a graying and dying property that has held on for dear life. I don't expect people to not ever have gripes or voice their opinions, but many of these arguments are ludicrous to say the least. We, Star Trek fans, should be extremely grateful for gaining our fandom back. Even if you don't like these films. The door is being opened for a new generation of series and more entries into the franchise.
Abrams has given Trek a fresh start. These films may have Trek DNA, but it is for everyone. Not just for petty squabbling Trekkies. A group of people that would only want a permanently antiquated and troublesomely boring variation of these characters; characters we’ve seen before. This is a new timeline, a new set of alternate personalities. I’m surprised Bad Robot didn’t make Spock more human (which is what I would love to see more of). Possibly because Abrams didn’t want to transition so quickly, causing most fanboy minds to explode.
I have another set of articles in the works talking about the realities of minority vs majority when it comes to genre films. In the end, STAR TREK (2009)
and STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS (2013)
are more financially successful and more critically acclaimed
than all of the Trek films in the past. In some cases than a few combined! In some odd and strange way I’m certain that a fandom such as the Trekkie/Trekker community is unhappy because this was “theirs” and now it's everyone else’s ("Ours").
The counter-culture has been made to exist for all; it’s no longer just a community of Sci-Fi geeks (the socially awkward) laying claim to this amazing franchise. It’s been designed to appeal to everyone. The ramifications of a young mind witnessing Abrams Star Trek, who may have never seen TOS or any other Trek series and films, is immeasurable & far reaching.
I am (frankly) tired of reading propaganda taken to another level, by any media, trying to feed the frenzy of a group of selfish people that only want Trek for themselves. We see this in all fandoms, but I do wonder if this is more of a problematic issue in the Trek communities. If you ask Shatner, he’ll say “F***ing Trekkie fans are crazy!” He said it to me & my mother when I was 7; he said it to me again in 2005 while working with Star Fest in Denver. He's said it in various ways in his books. He yelled it out in Dragon*Con in 2011 (I was present and it was hilarious), with a line of people wrapping around the block in downtown Atlanta.
Into Darkness was an amazing film, period. It was a great entry into the Star Trek franchise and it continues to breathe life into a fandom that may have only continued to exist in a few current video games otherwise. The fanboys (girls included) making the arguments above into pure reductio ad absurdum are wrong. Normally I’m objective and try to be as PC as possible, but this is a rant against a group of people that could potentially be the smartest fandom out there, yet are acting like the dumbest group of people I've ever associated with.
This concludes my Editorial-Rant…
Comment, share, tweet, argue, flame, bitch, moan…You’ll still be wrong, but I respect the rights you have to your opinions (Trolls I will just erase). You’re Sci-Fi fans (among comic book fans) you’re allowed to be a little crazy!