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The Wonder Woman Conundrum

I just don't understand Wonder Woman. I don't understand her character. I don't get her appeal. And I want to, I really do.
I've always wanted to be interested in Wonder Woman, I've tried reading her books but I've never been able to stick with them for very long. She has such a great iconic image, but her stories, to me always seem to be lacking or severely dated.

I understand Superman. I inderstand Batman. I get Catwoman, Batgirl, Black Canary, Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, Supergirl, Power Girl, Big Barda, Manhunter. I understand these characters. I understand what attracts me to these characters (or other fans to these characters). I feel that I have a good idea of what they would and would not do, say and would not say.

But Wonder Woman? I have no idea who her character is.

Is she an ambassador of peace or is she a warrior princess? Is she here to learn or to teach? She’s an experienced fighter, but a virgin (loaded word, that) in human interactions? I understand her appeal as an icon, a symbol of women's power. I understand the appeal of a wonder woman, a being who steps out of myths in the "real" world, bringing a era of gods and monsters with her. But the character's aspects confuse me. She’s not as strong as Superman, but she’s a better fighter, and regal, so…what does all this mean? What is her definitive role?

If you look back to the early years, every character has a primary, fairly timeless template. Superman is a mythical heroic figure blended with an immigrant fairy tale; Batman is the ideal of vengeance-driven pulp detective heroes like The Shadow. But Wonder Woman was created in a much different mold; Marston built Wonder Woman with some very specific goals: to introduce a female superhero that reflected his own interests in polyamory, lie detection, and, bondage( yes you heard me right that was one of his stated goals).

Not only is that not exactly a timeless basis for a character – it was pretty unusual for the time of her creation. Marston was using his creation as a Trojan horse for his own philosophies, making the character’s motivations, unlike Superman and Batman, very specific to her creator’s intentions.

Since then, some great writers have professed to not knowing just how to write for her. Grant Morrison – who somehow managed to craft a definitive version of Plastic Man, for pete’s sakes –couldn’t get a handle on her (evident by the fact that she’s a minor player in both his Justice League run and his DC magnum opus, Final Crisis).

Bruce Timm and co. similarly couldn’t quite crack her in the “Justice League” animated series. The go-to female POV went to Hawkgirl, who was written as everyone’s favorite tom-girl.

Greg Rucka had a good take by literally making her an ambassador, with diplomatic credentials, a staff, and even a book deal espousing her philosophies – but DC took it all apart when he left.

Mark Waid used his “Kingdom Come” to play with the post-Marston contradictions in her portrayal – a warrior sent to teach peace – to examine the flaws in her system. Which doesn’t exactly make for a workable character template either.

Oddly enough, considering her 70’s repurposing as a feminist icon, “Get a woman to write her” hasn’t been the cure-all you’d expect. Popular novelist Jodi Picault took a shot a couple years back, and the results made you wonder if Picault had ever met a woman OR read a comic before in her life.


Wonder Woman is frankly missing the "great event" that defines her. And it's hard for writers to create one because of her lack of a template. A major problem with Wonder Woman is that the original, defining version of the character or series can't be used as a touchstone by its current creators.

Assigned to Superman? Make it like Siegel and Shuster, filtered through Weisinger/Binder.

Batman? Kane/Finger/Robinson, seen through the lens of O'Neill/Adams.

Fantastic Four? Do it like Stan and Jack.

And so on.

But Wonder Woman? Marston/Peter is just too weird and kinky to use. So you're left with a pell mell of variations because you have to stay true to cannon, but the cannon is just plain weird.


Like I said I'm continually trying to get into her, because she works so well as a supporting character. I've read multiple stories streatching back through the years and I just don't get why everyone goes up in arms when ever someone mentions going against cannon. From my point of view the only thing you can do IS ignore almost everything that came before and try and start anew. She's a beautiful character in the Spirit of Truth and Hikitea, but most of her other solo stories are beyond flat.

That's my two cents, maybe there's an arch I'm missing, and if I am point it out, I want to learn.

And the first person to state I don't get her because I have something against women gets an e-slap. I love Black Canary, catwoman, and the Cassandra Cain bat girl and most of all Xena and Captain Janeway. So shove it.
4 Yes
2 No
thwhtGuardian
10/21/2009

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146 Comments

You expressed your thoughts in a far more eloquent manner than I could have :) But I feel the same way.

I've never understood her purpose besides just being another fighter thrown into the JLA mix.

I think it's time they turn her into a villain. That would be interesting.


MultiPurposePoni - 10/21/2009, 8:57 PM
She's a great character, she just fails to meet potential. Conceptually she should be as cool as 300 and thor combined, but her stories seldom get there. I like Hikitea, it's one of my all time favorite comics but her usual fare is lack luster.

I hope that with my more in depth opinion, that this discussion will not come to personal attacks like it did that the last time I debated the quality of WW's writing.
thwhtGuardian - 10/21/2009, 9:03 PM
Wonder Woman is a character that worked back in the 50s and 60s. She's been struggling ever since to catch up to modern times.
TheUnknown - 10/21/2009, 10:27 PM
That's exactly it, everytime she is written she is written very specially, so much so that when times change she becomes antiquated. I said this in the other thread, but I think it bears repeating, there are stories written in the past that age well and others that don't. Perez's wonder woman reboot was prolly great in the 80's but now it just feels outdated, however other stories written at the same time like the watchmen and Batman Year One are still widely read and enjoyed to this day.
I can't for the life of me figure out why wonder woman doesn't work for me. She has an iconic image that is as timeless batman and superman, but her stories for me always fail to capture that same iconic feel.
I know she's well loved, there's got to be something I'm missing.
What are her iconic stories?


thwhtGuardian - 10/21/2009, 11:41 PM
I like the Wonder Woman character. I completely agree that she hasn't lived up to potential, and here is the why and how of it as I see it.

You're right in pointing out character's defining moments, and how they are shaped by them. Put a character in the dark, strip away everything else about them, and what events are at their heart?

For Batman you've got a gritty murder in a rainy back alley, a blood spattered childhood.

For Superman you have the destruction of an entire planet, and a lost legacy he can never recover.

But Wonder Woman has, uh . . . putting on her star-spangled panties and going to the World of Man? Her problem, as I see it, as that the nuances of the character, the psychologically shaping events in her past, just aren't all that powerful. Or rather, they've been written in ways that minimize them. And they've been done that way for so long that anyone who comes along to write her now feels an obligation to carry all that extra baggage with them. What she really needs is a mini-series that retells her origin and journey to the world of man in a more powerful, definitive, relatable way. Changes would have to be made. And honestly? They should be. While I love Wonder Woman, most people - the people going to see the Batman movies, and other CBMs - don't really give a damn about her. She doesn't resonate the same way. And she deserves better.
OptionFour - 10/22/2009, 2:01 AM
I got it...Have Geoff Johns do a Wonder Woman: Secret Origins as he did with Green Lantern Hal Jordan and is currently doing with Superman. These have been considered to be their definitive origin stories worked into the current continuity. I think he's a great writer who understands the overall DCU so well that he could pull off an origin story for WW that would be great and timeless. My vote is for Geoff Johns to do WW:Secret Origin. What do you all think?
Bohemiben - 10/22/2009, 7:55 AM
GUYS, there are two important updates to the COSTUME CONTEST!

Go check them out :)
MultiPurposePoni - 10/22/2009, 9:46 AM
I would agree that the character has become confusing over the years and im not that much of a fan, apart of me wonders if WW would still be pushed into comics if not for peoples memories of the tv show.....who knows but i like Multi's idea of making her a villain :P
teabag - 10/22/2009, 10:12 AM
@whtGuardian: Congrats! You made main page!
MultiPurposePoni - 10/22/2009, 10:13 AM
thanks multi.

I've heard rumors that the reason she is still pushed(despite low sales) is because if they cancel the book she immediately reverts back to the heirs of the creator. And despite her lack luster comic sales she is number three in merchandising sales, so rather than let her go they allow her to chug on.

A Geoff Johns secret origins idea would work nicely, I like the GL one, however I'm more than satisfied with Superman Birth Right, so his superman one seems unnecessary to me.
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 10:19 AM
Does a character have to have a tragic origin to be a memorable character?
Betty - 10/22/2009, 10:20 AM
Where's Keepitreal?
Betty - 10/22/2009, 10:27 AM
I don't think she needs a tragic origin, it just needs to be consistent and feel timeless. Perez's version is full of 80's lingo so it feels terribly dated, Bryne's is well, even he admits he made the continuity even more confusing in his attempt to stream line it.
It needs to be powerful, it needs gravity. And her character needs to be consistently written.

I know, I wish I could get more input from Keepitreal an phin. I've read alot o Wonder Woman but they know her better I feel.
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 10:28 AM
Make her the next big villain. Too easy
MultiPurposePoni - 10/22/2009, 10:45 AM
in the words on RDJ
FU*K DC
lowflams3137 - 10/22/2009, 11:04 AM



lol i would just like to say one thing after that pic..................


KIR@ your awesome and i love you please dont kick me in the nuts ...xxxxxxxx :D
teabag - 10/22/2009, 11:13 AM
@teabag: That's so wrong. Everyone knows Wonder Woman can't cook for sh*t
MultiPurposePoni - 10/22/2009, 11:18 AM
Multi@ after a meal is the only time she doesnt use the laso for a response :)
teabag - 10/22/2009, 11:35 AM
you know, I think that panal might have been doctored tea, I don't think superman would say such a thing :P
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 11:52 AM
Anybody ever dated "the tough chick"?

The one that is in the military but still hot....
The triathlete maybe? The MMA babe or the one that goes mountain climbing on the weekends.

The kind of woman that wears rugged well, and can outdo the boys, possibly in several ways.

If you have expereinced that or if you can even relate to it, then you can understand the appeal of Wonder Woman. It's the same with Elektra too actually
DarthMulder - 10/22/2009, 12:06 PM
@Guardian: God knows WW deserves it though

@Darth: Yeah, you just named my wife and my last three girlfriends. But that's not how WW is portrayed. She's a 'goddess' with no relevance to the modern age. Besides, she doesn't even put out
MultiPurposePoni - 10/22/2009, 12:08 PM
yeah, multi hit it on the head( well about how she's portrayed). She is seldom portrayed in that manner, more often than not we get the naive ww. It flip flops back and forth between writers, there is just no consistency of character. In one issue she's the tough chick, in another she's a child lost in the "man's world". Some times she believes that aggression is the solution and others she is shown to avoid conflict. I'm trying to find the definitive wonder woman, something I can latch onto but I can't locate it.
What is her definitive arch?
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 12:20 PM
I think the point of Wonder Woman is to be like the mother figure as far as DC heroes go.

At least that's how I have seen her portrayed in most of her comics that I've read.
MovieTheaterLad - 10/22/2009, 12:47 PM
lol @ Multi cool

Yeah gents if your ever lucky enough to meet a woman like that that isn't a dyke or a ballbreaking feminazi, you better chase that shit down with all your might! lol They're rare.

@ thwhtGuardian: I wish I could answer your question knowledgeably, but I can't. I probably have less than thirty comics with WW in them. I was just taking a guess with the tough chick thing lol

But going by what you said, it sounds liek there migth not BE any definitive WW. Just like Wolverine, different writers have written her one way and then then other writers come along and do something else.
DarthMulder - 10/22/2009, 1:18 PM
well, the way I look at it. Is she's more ruthless than superman, and not quite as ruthless as Batman. She's the medium, and the female. She makes up the Trinity. She's the iconic best female super hero ever. Along with the perfect hero. ie superman. and the darkest ie batman. She creates a balance that is necessary to have these characters interact. That's good enough for me.
joslezio85 - 10/22/2009, 1:25 PM
Darth- I think you're onto something, but twG confuses me more with his questions that he raises than the imaginary problems he fabricates.
Seriously, twG, I don't get what you don't get. Fights for peace but is a warrior? I think you need a come to MultiPurposePoni moment here. He may be able to help you.
Just like Superman nor Batman isn't anything like what their creator made, neither is Wonder Woman. Superman didn't fly, and Bats actually brandished a gun!
Also, getting a woman to write her is the last prescription that I would write! Why? Because, when you write for these archetypes you are writing with ideals that are the best in us all. They are ideals that are not to be grasped with hands. Likewise with WW, there is a mystery about her that emminates from the opposite sex, that is, the ideal woman. Her story starts from an island of women that voluntarily isolated themselves from the world of men. So the story can't come from their point of view outward. It has to come from the outside in! They are a mystery(like as all stories develop). It can't be all explained in quick beautiful symplicity (women love foreplay and romance ;-p). Likewise, there is a fallacy with their Amazonian ideals. Same with the Kryptonian cousel of Superman's foundations. Their blinding arrogance brought on their destruction. Remember, although WW is an abassador to bring her Amazonian ideals to the patriarchs, she is at the same time exposing herself to a world she never experienced before. She is still learning like a child. So of coarse, her character cannot be written with strict definition as you would like. Wonder Woman, for all intensive purposes, is having to go through a rite of passage all over again as all boys and girls do through adolescence. Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't. I get her. I like it.
Phinehas - 10/22/2009, 1:41 PM
I watched a documentary on females in comics and the issue of Wonder Woman was brought up and how feminists have latched onto the character as their pop-culture poster child. Which in turn has effectively put up a creative wall for writers of the character. Giving them the unpleasant idea of really going for a new direction without starting the flood of hate mail and editorials. I think it was Mike Sekowsky who mentioned on the documentary about trying to go a new direction with the character and the utter shit storm he received from the feminist community for doing what he did. Which he does concede wasn't his greatest of ideas but he brings about the point that this character is so convoluted in her personality coupled with the restraints of her social iconic status with particular groups that even trying to go in a different direction has too much consequence and risk of reputation to the writer. It effectively holds them back. So, I think, that if a writer was to walk in with the task of creating a definitive Wonder Woman he really doesn't have the freedom one needs to really make it work. Which I also think is why today she is still just spinning her wheels in a way. The character's adopted iconic social status provides too many restraints for any major change.

She has the potential, no doubt, just doesn't have the will of the writers to really go at her history and clean her up. At least that was the impression I got from the documentary I watched. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the character but if they did do an overhaul on her, gave her a much needed update on the costume, ditched that ridiculous lasso of truth and cleaned up her origin enough I'd be more inclined to support her comics.


WeaponX - 10/22/2009, 1:47 PM
Also, as an addendum; Notice how you guys were talking about the "tough chick that is still hot"? How she goes hiking, climbing and camping, essentially athletic and "keeps up with the boys"? Guys love a competitve spirit! They want a woman like that to do the things with them that they love to do? How many of you guys wished your wives actually love to watch the games, go fishing, camping, etc? Of coarse! That's what WW provides, except her ideals keep her interesting because the shroud her with mystery.
Phinehas - 10/22/2009, 1:51 PM
I know she completes the trilogy but, she doesn't stand alone well without the other two at all. If she is so iconic then why is she only seen as the 'bridge' character? She needs a redoing. Go back retell her origins in a similar manner of the WW animated movie. I would prefer her to be overly naiave and arrogant to man's world. I hate he being portrayed as a child. She is a goddess raised by some of the most feriocious warriors known. This is how I would portray her with many allegories to the real-life American history.

She comes to 'man's world' not because of her own interest but rather forced by the Amazons. Amazonia is discovered by airforce pilot Steve Trevor who crashes on their island. The Amazonians have lived in solitude for quite some time they felt their island is safe from intruders. With the introduction of Trevor on their island their safety is jeopardized (references to America after 9/11 and how we felt unsafe), instead of just killing Trevor they fear that another accident such as that may happen again so they let him live and force WW to take Steve home, and spend some time in America ensure their safety. She travels to man's world and feels hers is far superior, and every aspect of man's world is dirty and insignificant. "Man's World" hates and dispises WW because of her attitude towards the outside world, her often excessive use of force and power brings her in conflict with the US military. It takes Steve Turner to make both side realize they can live together and Amazonia and the rest of the world can be equals. Wonder Woman accepts America and "Man's world" and feels a sense to protect "Man's World" (much like the USA's sense to be involved with the rest of the world). She then finds out Amazonia plans on attacking America to ensure their safety and dominance as they felt Wonder Woman failed them and became soft. This battle pits WW against her former home and sisters which only by destruction of both sides do the Amazonians see the wrong of their ways.


MidKnight35 - 10/22/2009, 1:56 PM
There is no definitive arc, the character is [frick]ed. The only way to enjoy the character is to not collect her solo books. Any writer that comes aboard will just add to the mix instead of setting anything straight.

I feel that there is only one way to do this. The ol' Pheonix rising from her ashes formula. KILL HER!!! Have her come back so [frick]ed up that she doesn't know who she's been and her identity search comes out as confusing as her comic book history. In short, she'd be "re-making" herself to a definitive template for once in the character's history!!! Keep the best in all worlds and make a brand new mold is what i say ;)
Shaman - 10/22/2009, 2:00 PM
I think WW was best portrayed in Kingdom Come and New Frontier when she has to be talked down. She's an idealistic character (probably even more so than Superman) and she's best used when her ideals are at the point of going too far. @multi: That would make her an excellent villain. It's that mix of naivete, good intentions, and a limited worldview that make her a great conflicted character. That's why why she is a great supporting character because she needs an anchor. I think this is best explored in anything with her and Superman.
Upupandaway - 10/22/2009, 2:11 PM
I think WW was best portrayed in Kingdom Come and New Frontier when she has to be talked down. She's an idealistic character (probably even more so than Superman) and she's best used when her ideals are at the point of going too far. @multi: That would make her an excellent villain. It's that mix of naivete, good intentions, and a limited worldview that make her a great conflicted character. That's why why she is a great supporting character because she needs an anchor. I think this is best explored in anything with her and Superman.
Upupandaway - 10/22/2009, 2:15 PM
Okay, I get what you're saying about Wonder Woman, even if I don't share the same views. And you can post it all you want on here, of course. but why did the powers-that-be decide to put it on the front page, let alone on the top billing? It's not exactly big news. Oh well.

To get to your point, I think the movie should be based off Perez's initial run on the series, which was just a fantastic adventure story mixed with a fish-out-of-water tale.
Gail Simone's latest run on the series is also fan-freaking-tastic!
slimybug - 10/22/2009, 2:42 PM
In my opinion, Wondy is a plain character, but suffers behaviour fluctuations, just like a sine function. That would explain her duality between warrior princess and peace ambassador, for example.
Merinator - 10/22/2009, 2:56 PM
@slimybug: This article received top billing because it's well versed, eloquent and deals with a character that has been in comic/movie news alot lately.

Why does it bother you that someone's article was well received by CBM editors? Did your article get overlooked?
MultiPurposePoni - 10/22/2009, 3:03 PM
it's not the warrior part phin, it's the way she reacts at times: sometimes she naive and other times she's a cynic driven by aggression. I understand the rite of passage thing, and how that would create a certain amount of duality in the character, but that doesn't explain away why she's written so erratically.

What are her memorable story archs, what can I read to get her? You want some to like batman you tell them to read year one, the killing joke or the long Halloween. With superman you tell them to get what ever happened to the man of tommorow, superman for all seasons, birth right and the death of superman. But what about wonder woman? What are her defining solo archs. I love her in trinity, and in the Justice League, but aside from the Hiketia and the spirit of truth most of her solo stuff seems poorly written. The character is great phin, but I don't get why her writing isn't. I guess that didn't get across well yet. It's her writing I don't get.

I love her as a character, but I can't understand why her solo books aren't up to par.

And darth I think the comparison to wolverine is a good one about the convoluted continuity( say that ten times fast!) But even so wolverine himself remains the same character wise he's always feral, always surly and he has several great story archs of his own that you can point to for anyone interested in him.

and slimy, while the elements of perez's run were interesting the books themselves seem very dated. You read them and you find your self thinking this is very dated where as in books like the watchmen and year one which were written around the same time don't feel like that at all.


thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 3:06 PM
twG-
Ahhhh...now were talking. I'll leave that up KIR. She's a more avid WW apologist than I am. I am a fan of the character as you note. I have visions of how I would have her portrayed in writing or film. KIR has more familiarity to WW comic myth than I do.
Phinehas - 10/22/2009, 3:12 PM
I'd really like her input. I've been reading ww for years and it's something that's always been on my mind. Every once in a while she strikes gold but most of the time it's a miss. Like I said, hiketia is one of my favorite books, not just wonder woman but of all comics. And it confuses me as to why there aren't more like it. There are dozens of great batman stories, and the same with superman, why is it so hard to do wonder Woman?
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 3:21 PM
She's hard to do because of her chainmail briefs.

Trust me. . I've tried
MultiPurposePoni - 10/22/2009, 3:28 PM
lol I bet you have multi
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 3:33 PM
thwG - This isn't a Wonder Woman problem. This is a DC comics problem! They continue to permutate their characters to match each trend/fad/generation leaving newer readers utterly confused! They've tried numerous times to fix this, but the problem always seems to repeat itself!

What I can suggest is starting with the "Who Is Wonder Woman" arc by Allan Heinberg and Terry Dodson(WW vol. 3, #'s 1 -6 and Annual 1). It is excellently executed and offers a good starting point.

From there I'd check out Phil Jimenez's run from earlier this decade, followed by John Byrne's vol. 2 issues and then George Perez's 1987 - 1991 stint! There was also a solid run by William Messner Loebs & Mike Deodato about 7 years ago.

Lastly, I highly recommend checking out the excellent Spirit of Truth treasury edition that Alex Ross and Paul Dini did in 2001.

Other than that, I don't think there is a definitive arc for WW, as Hippolyta has been ret-conned into being the Golden Age WW.
JonF - 10/22/2009, 3:47 PM
thanks man, the spirit if truth is good, I love ross and dini
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 4:19 PM
@ thwhtknight

i understand what you mean. i'm not big on ole bitch-tits either. i think a lot of it comes from the fact that she's really the first female character to be so popular. she's a female superman for all intents and purposes. but i can just never get into her, at all. i don't mind when she's around or anything like that, but she's kind of just there to me, i don't take much notice. but at the same time, i wouldn't want a justice league without her, go figure, huh?
CorndogBurglar - 10/22/2009, 4:22 PM
@ jonF

unfortunately, you're right man. but the same can be said about marvel comics too. the difference is marvel is smart about their changes, and if it doesn't click, they're good about changing things back to the way they were. (with the exception of one more day of course, lol)

but DC has problems, i cant really figure out, lol. every time they screw up their continuity too much, they just have another Crisis story and fix it with alternate universe and time stream mumbo jumbo. talk about taking the easy way out.

make mine marvel!
CorndogBurglar - 10/22/2009, 4:29 PM
@ jonf

you sound like you know a little about comics! i don't know if you were here for it, but there was an article about beyonce playing WW in the movie. it created the longest commented article i've seen. what do you think about someone playing WW that isn't white?
CorndogBurglar - 10/22/2009, 4:32 PM
It seems every few months, there is some article about how Wonder Woman is dated and lame. How her time is over. The same thing, over and over again. They love to point out how kooky Marston was, the bondage stuff, how revealing her outfit is, etc. ALL of these arguments come off as nothing but sexist to me (sorry, not saying you are sexist, but it does come off that way) because not only could similar arguments be made about the dated ideas set in the early years of Batman and Superman, almost no one ever makes those arguments about them. Just Wonder Woman. When was the last time you heard ANYONE harp on and on about the racist portrayals in the early Captain America comics for example?

People love to talk about the aspects of WW that are dated: The bondage ALWAYS comes up, even though it hasn't been a factor in the character for decades upon decades. Why not focus on the aspects of WW that weren't offputting, but actually ahead of their time?? WW was leading armies before women could actually serve in the American Military-as an female empowerment icon, she pre-dates Rosie the Riviter. Before the word "feminism" was a thing, she was telling a generation of young girls to be strong and independent. THAT is what should be focused on with Wonder Woman, but there is ALWAYS some article by someone who mostly wants to talk about bondage and polygamy.

Wonder Woman's contradictions- "warrior for peace" etc, are exactly what make her interesting and not just cut and dry. There is a complexity there...someone who stands for future enlightenment but is a creation of old world gods. Diana STANDS for something, beyond just equal rights for women, but equal rights for everyone (which is one of the many reasons she is so appealing to gay readers like myself) If Superman is the firefighter of the DCU, and Batman is the Cop, then Wonder Woman is the Politician, and that is not a role any other comic book Icon really has. Someone who has a strong desire to affect change in society, not just stop crimes and save people. She wants to alter the status quo because she knows it's jacked. More than anything, THAT is what is so appealing to me.

Also, Wonder Woman is the ONLY true female super hero Icon who stands totally on her own. Supergirl, Batgirl, Spider-Woman,She-Hulk? All great, but they are spin offs of more popular male super heroes. Invisible Woman, Scarlet Witch, Storm, Jean Grey? -again, love 'em, but they are famous as members of teams. In this respect, Wonder Woman stands alone. Maybe come back to me in a few decades when everyone knows who Ms.Marvel is and she has a book that lasts for more than a few years. But even then it can be argued she was meant to be a spin off of Captain Marvel, so maybe not even her.

Anyone who sees the animated Wonder Woman movie and doesn't see why WW is cool just has an issue with the character, because that movie rocked. Add 30 minutes and there is your live action flick. Done.

Wonder Woman has had great runs on her title (George Perez, Jiminez, Rucka, Gail Simone) and many lame ones. But you can say that about any long running character (ESPECIALLY Superman) But yet it seems Diana gets more criticism than he does. I Find this all very interesting to say the least.
Lestat74 - 10/22/2009, 4:43 PM
yeah, justice league won't be the same without her, her character really brings balance. Plus I love seeing her and batman take jabs at eachother.
For some reason when ever I see them go back and forth it seems less like they're flirting and more like bruce is upset that he's getting less quality time with superman ;p
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 4:43 PM
I have actually never read a WW solo comic, but I do like her in the JL and crossover titles.
Rorschach01 - 10/22/2009, 4:43 PM
She does have great boobs tho :O
teabag - 10/22/2009, 5:19 PM
Lestat74 you're right about batman's and sup's golden adventures, they're pretty hokey too...do I need to post the picture of batman and his many colored suites that he must wear? lol. And Superman's continuity needs a reboot every five years or so because once he's faced the villain once the repetes are some what monotonous.
As for wonder woman, you talk about her being strong and independent, and she certainly is, but I don't see that enough, it isn't consistent.
The animated movie did rock it was a beautiful update of perez's work, which needed to be updated badly. Like I said if you compare his run to batman year one, or the watchmen, or tmnt you'll see that the both the dialogue and the art seem very 80's while the others seem timeless. The same can be said of Bryne's man of steel 80's reboot, both runs seem very dated and becuse of that you don't see tpb's of them at your local comic shop.
Your statement of Wonder Woman as being a politician is great, that's why her character is appealing. All the points you bring up are great points to er character, and as a character I love her, and I'd be first i line to see her in a movie. She's iconic, and i love that, but even more so than batman and superman her stories seem lack luster. The people who write her even seem to have a hard time expressing her. My editorial was meant to be about the story telling, and that is my gripe with her, she does so wonderfully in the justice league and trinity, why can't that be consistently done in her solo stories?
She seems to be criminally under written, and I wondered if it was just me who thought so, if I was just missing her defining stories. All you have to do is go to a comic shop, or a border or barnes and noble and you'll see dozens of tpbs of batman and superman's greatest exploits...but when it comes to wonder woman, DC's leading lady, you get one or two. Why? Why can't DC get her right? That's what I've been asking here. That's what I want to discuss. For a character who is so important to so many people why isn't she written better? Where is her Year One, where is her Birth Right? She deserves to be written better.
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 5:23 PM
Well, I happen to think that the Perez 80's reboot IS the definitive Wonder Woman...yes, it is dated, but aside from very, very few comics (Watchmen and Batman Year One like you said) most comic stories have the time stamp of when they were made. The definitive X-Men story by many is the Dark Phoenix Saga, but it too screams late 70's/early 80's. Definitive Spider-Man is 60's Stan lee/Steve Ditko...also dated, but you read it through the prism of when it was made. And then you realize that it is great anyway. Also, Gail Simone is kicking ass right now on the book. I think Wonder Woman has at least the same good-to-bad ratio as say, Daredevil or Thor or any other long running character.
Lestat74 - 10/22/2009, 6:03 PM
Gail Simone's run seems good so far, I just recently picked up a few issues and I'm enjoying them, so far her humor is great! I loved her on birds of prey too.

wow I feel special I have an icon at the top of the front page!
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 6:10 PM
WW first love intrest was Col. Steve Trevor a character no longer appearing in any of WW comics or her sidekick what's her name, I do know she was on the chubby side ..
Her first villians were Nazies and dominering women who seemed to always tie her up in wierd ways almost in a sexual fetish fashion.
WW would make a great Lesbian porno..........
georgia49th - 10/22/2009, 7:32 PM
yeah poor Steve is hardly mentioned anymore, I believe in current continuity he's married to Etta, the chubby side kick you mentioned. Other than that I don't know much about his current status.
I did like his appearance on the justice league cartoon, I think it was called savage time, where he was an intelligence officer just like in the golden age.
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 8:22 PM
thwhtGuardian: niiiice! very well written. nicely done. I dont agree with it all.. and i am still reading but you speak with class baby. ;) Where do I begin?

tea! im gonna git you! >:P (love you too)

corndogburgler: dont start with the beyonce ;)... its just getting GOOD!

multi: !@#$%!# troublemaker!

lestat: "Anyone who sees the animated Wonder Woman movie and doesn't see why WW is cool just has an issue with the character, because that movie rocked. Add 30 minutes and there is your live action flick. Done. "

I was with you 100% till you said that! lol! I have some series issues with that movie! =P
KeepItReal - 10/22/2009, 8:54 PM
Thanks keepitreal. i've been waiting diligently for your input, although the conversation with lestat was excellent too as I'm now taking a closer look at perez and trying to get past the 80's look.
As for the post itself I don't think it was as clear as I would have liked. It's not the character I don't get necessarily it's why she's written so inconsistently. In my writing I was tryng to explore why her stories seem lack luster to me. i think some of my responses make that clearer, and I would have edited them into the main article but I'm locked out.
I'm pretty pleased with the level of discussion, and so far I haven't been called a sexist pig so it's going much better than the last time we talked about ww!
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 9:11 PM
@ KIR

yeah, i probably was shaking up a big can of worms with that, huh?
CorndogBurglar - 10/22/2009, 9:19 PM
lol yeah you were. Although part of me is sad that it didn't take off from there corndog, it's the part of me that likes a good car crash I guess.
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 9:32 PM
Guys, this article was written as a result of my debate with Guardian on the other WW thread. The one about the Lois and Clark writer doing a WW TV series. He wrote this so his friends could come in here and reinforce his/their opinion(s) to show me how wrong I am. Pathetic really! LOL I hope you had fun masturbating yourself into a frenzy over how "superior" you are to the rest of us guardian!
davidcub - 10/22/2009, 10:13 PM
Debate? You attacked my character and refused to speak in a civilized way. But yes, I wrote this so that the discussion could continue because I thought it was worth having. If you read the discussion you'll see that no one else had to use personal attacks, and because of lestat I've brushed off some of my old perez copies of ww to take a another look at them and try to read them in the frame that they were written instead of with the bias of my love of more modern stories.

I don't see how trying interact with others with opposing view points is "masturbation" or in anyway an attempt to appear to be superior. So think of me what you may but as you can see, I am not the only one that thought this was a pertinent and worth while discussion to hold.
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 10:46 PM
"Created during World War II, WW character was initially depicted fighting the Axis military forces, as well as an assortment of supervillains and supervillainesses. In later decades, the World War II setting was often maintained, while other writers updated the series to reflect an ongoing "present day."

Dr. William Moulton Marston (May 9, 1893 – May 2, 1947), also known by the pen name, Charles Moulton. He also invented the lie detector with his wife Elizabeth Holloway Marston. (which was used as the concept for the WW golden lasso)

This is what stands out for me when I 1st think of WW. My first introduction of her. The Nazi era. And when Steve Trevor crash lands on her island and she wins the contest to become the Ambassador and escort him back to his world. If he never crash landed Wonder Woman may never have existed. This is to me what you term as the arch story.

I dont really understand too much when you say you get her character and why she is iconic, what she stands for and what she does but she is lackluster. You say yourself you like some stories written like Hikitea. So you like Wonder Woman just depending on WHO writes her. Like Nolans batman and the "he who shall not be named with neon lights" batman. Its WHO writes it. And while you would argue that though batman has different writers his character is the same. So is WW. No matter who writes her she is still and always is: Wonder Woman, Princess Diana, Agent Diana, Ambassador, Amazon. This is constant. Nothing else changes except the mood she's in when they write her. She is as strong as Superman. its why he is the only one who challenges her when sparring. Batman spars with WW to learn the Amazonian ways of fighting.

I like how joslezio85 said it:
"she's more ruthless than superman, and not quite as ruthless as Batman. She's the medium, and the female. She makes up the Trinity."

You liked hikitea... would you say that is Batmans character? To give in and pledge himself to Wonder Woman? or would he have said: "WW be damned! Im taking that girl in for justice!" many argue that batmans character in that book was compromised in order to give Wonder Woman the victory. Its subjective to WHO wrote the story & those who read it.

I know what you're saying in regards to liking some stories more than others. My least favorite of WW is Golden Age WW. But she still has other good stories to me. so i keep the good and filter out the bad.

in regards to her sales in books where do you get those numbers from? If she is third in line, how could that be poor? Nowadays alot of biz is seeing a dive in sales music, movie, even books with everthing being leaked and could be downloaded for free on the internet. Ive noticed in this generation most girls dk who WW is (***gasp***) but they have all these other things going on. Make the movie, make it well in the 300 style or nolans style and I believe those who dont know will want to know her. There is a reason why she is not easily dismissed.

****BTW**** Wonder Woman did die. The quickest and easiest way for Hera to bring her back was as the Goddess of Truth.
KeepItReal - 10/22/2009, 11:31 PM
If she's as strong as Superman, KIR, why does she need the bracelets to deflect projectiles?
Phinehas - 10/22/2009, 11:48 PM
"I'm pretty pleased with the level of discussion, and so far I haven't been called a sexist pig so it's going much better than the last time we talked about ww! "

I didnt think you were. At first I was thinking maybe you didnt care for her much for being a woman but you have cleared that up. =) I like how you express yourself whether you agree or disagree. classy. =)

im sorry it took so long to post. alot on my plate haha!
KeepItReal - 10/22/2009, 11:51 PM
because they're cool looking phin.

She third in line in merchandising, but her comic sales, according to the comicbuyers guide, have historicly been low at times being beaten out by the likes of Booster gold.
I think my confusion lies in the fact that there just aren't that many tpbs of wonder woman and that bothers me. I don't see why she can be such a great character but writers seem to have trouble writing really good stories with any kind of consistency.
I think it's a problem for many dc characters as the same could easily be said of the flash or the green lantern, heck even superman I mean how many times has he been rebooted?
thwhtGuardian - 10/22/2009, 11:58 PM
phine: "If she's as strong as Superman, KIR, why does she need the bracelets to deflect projectiles? "

hey, whose side you on?! haha! =)

She wears the bracelets as a symbol to remind her of a subjugation that the amazons would never again endure. :P

....and yeah... they look cooool LOL!

KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 12:01 AM
that answer is much better than mine kir :p

and I'm spent.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 12:02 AM
i don't get the appeal of wonder woman someone tell me what makes her so cool
ComicFreak11 - 10/23/2009, 12:12 AM
Well i'll tell you one thing about Wonder Women she has the hottest super hero costume in all of comics. A close second with psylocke. And she is kinda weak cause she picked up thor's hammer and got the power of Thor and storm still kicked her but. Yeah i gusse she diden't know how to use the power of a nors god.
Logan-X - 10/23/2009, 12:14 AM
i will agree with you on the costume logan x
ComicFreak11 - 10/23/2009, 12:29 AM
I am just waking up and now i gotta get all"intellectual" and s#it?! Well i am not biting other than to say ... my favorite all time ever Wonder Woman moment is during the scene in "Justice League- A new Frontier" when She was helping Liberate the Woman of of the "Asian" village. That scene with the woman and Feminine Justice was incredible and that is how i see my Wonder Woman. That moment very much reminds me of Thor , who is pretty irrelevant as a character to the Human condition... until he takes up our causes as a freedom fighter and a protector of the planet with complete disregard of the others Avengers "feelings". Give Wonder's this same treatment and it is guaranteed gold.
shibazz - 10/23/2009, 10:01 AM
She is amazing in new frontier, especially with Lucy Lawless' voice!
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 10:16 AM
I have to agree with Shibazz. Her background in myth is where her foundation should be. Easily moving back to proving her mother and heritage she is worthy of the position soon to come to her upon her mothers passing. Strong, intelligent yet with a hint of compassion not found in her other amazonians. If you are not able to write about Hipolita, Hades etc then your on the wrong comic book.
tr8cthis - 10/23/2009, 10:22 AM
She's as strong as Superman no, she has the strength of Hercules she is not however indestructable she bleeds she can be killed with a bullet but she is fast as Mercury and she needs to deflect those bulleets while Superman doesnt need too .
georgia49th - 10/23/2009, 10:30 AM
Lol . You can sit there and post your eloquent spins until you are blue in the face. I know you aren't trying to understand WW. You are just using this forum to bash her. Like I said. There are plenty of people who don't read comicbookmovie.com or comic books that get and
love Wonder Woman. If you read Perez' version and don't get her because you can't seem to get past the fact that it took place in the 80's, either your brain hasn't evolved enough, or your just being a geeky little prick!
davidcub - 10/23/2009, 10:36 AM
Why is it so hard for you to believe that I'm actually trying to expand my tastes in comic books? Whatever. I don't see anyone else who seems to think as you do, so I don't think this discussion is a waste. And again I say you lose all credibility when you resort to petty attacks on someone you don't even know.
In the words of Gene Wilder," Good day sir!"

Oh and EXCUSE me for expressing my opinions in an eloquent fashion, it's the way I write naturally. Would I fit better into your little woman hating comic book nerd box that you've seen fit to place me in if I instead wrote like this: L0L! sTfu! RoTfL!!!!

thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 10:49 AM
thwhtGuardian: that is beneath you. Once people know you for what you truely are there is no need to explain yourself further. I get you and know you are being nothing but genuine (even if you like to tease me a lil bit!). I LOVE how you and phine express yourselves and would hate to see that change.

david: i like you and love how you get Wonder WOman like phine and me. Its fantastic. =) But thwhtGuardian is good too even if Wonder Woman is not his favorite. You have to respect that. Its his opinion, right or wrong, just his opinion. He doesnt resort to calling WW whore or anything. he is very respectful imo and so we should be the same in return. He's nice and good people and smart.
KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 11:50 AM
Thank you KIR. I never intended to offend, or cause some kind of epic flame war. I enjoy discussing things, especially things I don't completely understand. It's in my nature to seek out good-natured debates, and this community is perfect for that. There are so many people with differing opinions and it's really fun to explore them here.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 1:10 PM
;) np. I wsnt offended. it was fun but I dont think I was able to answer you fully. I think I fell short of what I want to say and what I actually do say. Its why I love how you and phine write. it sounds all so elegant. I get too many things jumbled in my head and cant get it all out. I like good natured debates too (though im not too good at it haha) I want to have fun like this debate was for me. I only get upset when people start to get nasty like when you got upset. There's no reason for that. Debate, but be friendly or at least civil. Its fun when you get the flame going...like on that beyonce site... that was hilarious! and I think everyone was having fun. I know I get caught up with WW but i never want to offend either. know what i mean. =) Its all in good fun. or at least should be. Did this debate here help at all? haha
KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 1:35 PM
It helped a great deal, there were some really good insights from people who were really passionate about wonder woman as well as some people who have helped me to see that my issue with the way wonder woman is handled is not only indicative of her books but a great many other DC heroes as well.
And your writing is fine, like I said earlier to phin, I was really looking forward to your input as I know how passionate about wonder woman you are. I always try to be civil in my writing, because as I said I love hearing different opinions and I really do genuinely respect everyone even when we fundamentally disagree. It's very hard to keep a cool head though when an anonymous face judges me though, it's a fault I have. I can understand disagreeing with someone I can even take being not liked for holding a point of view, but to then be categorized by someone and put into a box just to be derisive makes me lose it. I'm very glad that seldom happens here.
@Davidcub: I'm sorry for losing it man, you just pushed all the wrong buttons. No hard feelings, we all have our passions, if we didn't then why would we all come here? I respect that passion and all passions, and I always have.
CBM Solidarity is what I'm all about.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 2:03 PM
you're very nice. thank you. =)

I think WW just is a very multifaceted character and without the proper writer to really capture that about her and display her with the right back drop she gets lost in translation. Like you get part of the picture but not the whole picture. The true essence of who Wonder Woman is, is lost. To me she is a princess warrior turned ambassador who joined the ranks of protecting her adoptive country.She wears many hats like most superheros. Her birthright, as you put it, was that contest on the island when Steve Trevor crash landed on her island for me. If he hadnt Wonder Woman may never have come to be. The nazi era was a significant time too I think in that its when the world is first coming to know WW and expect great things from her. I think its harder for me to explain because I grew up loving her. gg. It also just come down to what a person likes and can take away from the stories imho.
KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 2:39 PM
She does seem to be alot more complex, which probably leads to writers being afraid to really explore her. Comparatively it is much easier to write for the other members for the justice league, with GL all you need is a ugly alien with dreams of inter galactic conquest, and with superman you present him with either a baddie as tough as he is or someone who can't be beat by bashing his face in... but wonder woman (like thor) is a hero with her feet in two separate worlds. However, unlike thor, you can't put her solely in one would without the story losing something and I think that is often done. Dc seems to be more about quick fixes, or that just might be my marvel bias talking. Their heroes lose something with all their reboots and crises and it's often times hard for me to reconcile all the different versions.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 2:50 PM
you have all this going back and forth... time traveling and parallel universes and more than one Wonder Woman. If you're not on top of it you can get lost in the shuffle. The story does shift and if you dont pay attention you get lost quick.

For example for me the introduction of WW was the nazi era. When Steve crash landed on WW island etc... etc... now you head up some decades later... and the story changes. It wasnt really Diana being WW in 1940... but the Queen Hippolyta herself. From 1942-1950. If you dont go along with the new time line and follow up you get lost.

WW was created in 1940 as the queen making a child from clay. in 1973 the story updates, reboots whatever and now you see the queen not making one child but 2. One from a light clay and another from dark clay. behold you have WW and her twin sister Nubia. She was kidnapped by Ares to be trained to be WW nemesis. Course, WW finds out. They fight together and become long lost sisters reunited and friends.

After Hipplyta and Diana Artemis is the only other Amazon who was WW. She was from the Bana- Mighdall tribe. She bested Diana in the second contest and became WW. She was the chief Warrior or Shim'Tar of her tribe. . They had a 2nd contest because the Queen kept having visions of dianas death. So she wanted a new Ambassador for the Patriarch world. She made the sorceress Magala transfer a portion of Dianas might to Artemis.

Wonder Woman is very complex and to be watched closely. blink and you miss something. but its like the Avengers and Ultimate Avengers.

Look and nick fury and Ultimate Nick Fury. one white one black. Which is the real one? If you dont know which belongs where you get lost and confused. its why i dont believe Sam Jackson should be in the movie Avengers because for the time frame they are considering for the movie is not the same time frame of Ultimate Nick Fury. He is from the future and not belonging when they first built the Avengers. Its mismatched imho.

Look at Capt America. They started out that they were experimenting with super soldiers and they end result is him. Now, in 2000 something they want to make Captain America played by Will Smith. How is this possible? Well, they reason that when they experimented on the soldiers- black soldiers and so this will be a different Capt America or something to that effect. I get confused.

Since i dont really follow the stories much i get confused and its complicated and so I like them, I get what they stand for but... i dont get the big picture or whole picture and why everyone loves these characters so much. I dont think its just Dc who looses something in the reboot and crisis. =)

I liked how you made the reference to Thor and being in two worlds. it would be interesting to see if Thor movie is a success and if it is... could it then maybe work somewhat for WW.
KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 5:06 PM
I have a feeling that's what DC is waiting for, Thor is the closest approximation complexity wise(even then he's not nearly as complex as he's mostly a noble barbarian). Yeah marvel has some characters that shuffled around too, like wolverine for instance. But his multiple changes in origin never seem to effect his stories, whether you think he's a highly evolved wolverine, the first mutant or just an ordinary mutant it doesn't change much, where the crises in DC change so much about the characters. The only real comparable wholesale change in Marvel is the whole brand new day thing with spider man, I'm really trying to figure that one out I mean an annulment by satan is a pretty hardcore way to get out of a marriage and mess with the universe. Comics sometimes have weird logic.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 5:30 PM
FINALLY! Someone who spells "weird" correctly! it drives me NUTS when I see "wierd" lol!

yeah huh... see how Thor does and run with it! noooo .. not DC... get out! haha! =)

I think all the comics, some more than others, are complex to an extent. Then you find the one that seems to resonate with you and you click. And its comics. its meant to entertain afterall. Suspend belief for awhile. hehe...

annulment by satan? and spiderman? divorce?! i am waaaaaaaay behind! haha.. you lost me there. Is this spiderman or the real housewives... hahaha!
KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 6:10 PM
lol right, the writers didn't like peter married or the whole world knowing he was spiderman so he made a deal with Mephisto and for exchange for his aunt's life he had to give up his marriage to MJ but he got his secret identity back as well. Talk about shoddy writing! In comparison I guess WW's writing isn't all that bad :p!
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 6:17 PM
omg! its like a soap opera!! lol! so now he got his secret back... and made a deal with the devil... there's hell to pay now, no? hehe... do you think spiderman will go dark there for awhile now? who will help get out of it?! ahhhh... the plot thickens!
KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 6:37 PM
lol Yup, it's the closest to a weird DC Crisis event I think Marvel has ever come. Mostly I just try to forget it happened, which I suppose is what I have to figure out what to do with Wonder Woman; figure out which plot revisions are just silly and focus on the ones that make sense. Being a Marvel guy I guess it's just easier for me to do with characters like Captain America and Thor and the rest than it is with DC characters whom I only read read about in team up stories like Trinity and JLA.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 6:54 PM
I don't like that the first WW was Hippolyta. Or that she has a Nubian sister. Those are convolutions that are not necessary for a good dramatic character. I would love a crack at writing for WW.
Phinehas - 10/23/2009, 7:17 PM
That's the kinda stuff that throws me off phin, if I was an avid DC fan I guess I'd know how to weed that kinda stuff out, but because I'm only a casual reader of the DC universe(mainly Batman, Superman and JLA)it seems like a mess to me. I suppose the Marvel universe must look the same to someone used to being mainly in DC.

I think that's why I like Hellboy the best. He has his own continuity and really just one writer. When you only have one creative voice telling the story at all times it makes for a much less confusing universe.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 7:32 PM
True, twG.
I see just as many overly written archs in Marvel's universe as in DC's. No one is safe. Slumping sales? Kill off a character. Story going stale? Change the angle of the story and make an appeal to social issues like racism! Which is so old hat to me. The lack of ideas is astounding. LOL
Phinehas - 10/23/2009, 7:38 PM
The killing off of a character is certainly not interesting any more, it made me generally annoyed when I heard they are planning to kill off luke cage(and just as he's been getting interesting again). However, if done right, I've always enjoyed the social issues angle that Marvel often takes. I really enjoyed the whole issue of government power and privacy that was brought up with Civil War, and the new spin on identifying the X-Men with the Gay rights issue instead of the equal rights movement of Stan and Jack's day. Sometimes it does feel forced, but when it's subtle and ambiguous I think it leads to interesting and thought provoking reading.
Like I said I'm not a huge DC fan, so I've never seen a whole lot of those issues being debated outside of the Watchmen and occasionally the writers of Batman will attempt address the issues of a police state and the right to due process.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 7:48 PM
G'day! You gentlemen caused some little stir on the CBR Wondy board with thwhtG's post et seq; so I came, I saw, I found the discussion cool, and I've just registered witja. Long time WW fan, but ready to discuss all deficiencies in the character without sulking.

IMHO Wonder Woman isn't that hard to get. If Sailor Moon grew up to be Samurai Jack, that would be her. Something like that has been true in all WW incarnations.

Bill Marston's creation was very much to the Sailor Moon side -- he was in fact writing for schoolgirls. His stories now read like a little girl's fantasy of fighting in WW2, having a yummy boyfriend in Air Force intelligence, mixing with New York high society, and flying to the planets and sunken cities to put things right, and show all those snotty men that Girls Rule. You couldn't quite do it that way today, in the straight DCU, but I wouldn't mind seeing an off-canon parent-and-child friendly update, on the lines of "Supergirl: Cosmic Adventures in the 8th Grade".

After Marston, Bob Kanigher and others kept the Moony side rolling along, but the adult side of Wonder Woman was phoned-in, lost and lame, with exceptions. Then came George Perez and Greg Potter, and a whole new conception, putting Wondy's Jack side clearly on stage. Here are the beats: (1) She comes from a better place than this; (2) she was raised by a host of mighty, immortal warriors; (3) she's always a bit out of her depth in the cynical, hustling modern world; (4) she nevertheless treats every individual she meets with friendship and respect; (5) she was made to fight gods, especially the God of War; and (6) she completely assumes that all this is befitting a woman, and all women are her comrades.

Now I'd like to say, that's all you need to know about Wonder Woman, to write her or to decide whether you'd like to read her. And I do actually think that's pretty much the case. If you make those beats as a writer, I'm not going to fuss about whether Diana needs an invisible plane, or whether she wears the notorious swimsuit. There are always going to be multiple tellings of the WW story -- Marston's original is founded in history, the Lynda Carter TV show is what everyone knows, and the WW of the Justice League is the current standard. Someone's going to make a movie sometime, and then we'll have a further conception. But they all pretty much get the essentials right.

However, if you get into the present WW title, you'll find additional story assumptions at work. A lot of them. And the trouble is, these assumptions come from twenty years of stories by various hands, many of them much-loved and considered indispensable by one group of Diana-heads or another. And not all of them consistent, oh the surprise. It can well be argued -- and is argued, fiercely, on the WW forums -- that this accumulation of background makes it hard for new readers, and discourages potential fans.

It's no worse IMHO than for many mainstream characters. I'd like to get into Thor, but do I have to know all about the Celestials? I'd like to get into Green Lantern, but how many GLs are there, and who's this Ion, and who was Parallax, and what the hell is the status quo?

With Wonder Woman, it's more like, wasn't Steve Trevor her boyfriend, and are there bad Amazons now, what do I have to know about Donna and Wonder Girl, and what's the story with the albino gorillas?

And I would love to say, hang tight, all this will be made clear. But in truth, with WW at present, you have to live with a relatively high level of mystery and ambiguity.

This is because WW is a work under careful reconstruction. Our current writer is Gail Simone, fan-turned-pro, with a virtuoso turn on Birds of Prey on her resume, now also doing a hilariously dark job on Secret Six. Simone comes on board after a lamentable series of WW missteps, which basically commences with Identity Crisis. They tried to do a comprehensive reboot, sweeping twenty years of much-loved plotting under the carpet. There was just too much that loyal fans could not stomach. Gail came on with the evident intent to make the title fun again, stitch up some contradictions, and get the whole post-Perez toybox clean and shiny.

I love her stuff. But it can be argued that she suffers from Claremont's Complaint: dangling plotlines, loss of coherence, distraction by shiny things, etc. I'll field that criticism, but in the end if it's asking too much involvement with the series, then by all means leave it alone for a while. What's not in doubt is that Gail is providing some of the deftest plotting and the wittiest dialogue in the comics mainstream.

But while you're waiting ... thwhtGuardian was saying, he didn't know what the crucial stories were, if you were trying to get up to WW speed. Well, if that's the case, then, you boys need churchin' up!

There is this person called Bluefall. She has built up an absolutely classic series of posts covering the era from George Perez to When It All Went Unwell, pre-Simone. With a panoply of page-scans, and intelligent comment threads. These are the WW stories of the present canon, and an invaluable guide to what you might want to pick out in TPB.

Behold: When Wondy was Awesome

But that's for the background detail, as in, What about those Celestials then? For the basic definition of Wonder Woman, I'm content with just these maxims:

(1) If Sailor Moon grew up to be Samurai Jack.

(2) The best of American values, presented as a code of knighthood, presented as feminist aspiration.

(3) The closer you get to the real Diana, the more she's too good to be true.

So long for now, and I'll be watching the thread. Best wishes.

jelebino - 10/23/2009, 7:57 PM
I don't see the government intrusion into person life as a social issue, per se. Its a separate issue altogether as I see it.
I do not sympathize with the plight of so-called gay "rights" issue as the writers of the xmen are trying to tap into.
Multicultural (essentially, every group that has been oppressed by white christian males[That would be everyone else but, if you spent time in college]) doctrine is overwhelming pushed all the time. What I mean is, "is your team too white(JLA or Avengers)? Get a token black guy!" type of writing is prevailing. Civil rights issue was very real and palatable and should have been encouraged at the time. But that is something that this generation didn't have in their face like yesteryear. We have new problems. In some ways, more subtley sinister than ever before. Things are just so PC that when they creep into the comicbook world it comes off across as lazy writing and kooky and hokey reading. Seeing Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama, and Oprah Winfrey on the shelves just loses so much credibility that the industry has spent decades developing. It makes me wanna barf!
Phinehas - 10/23/2009, 8:04 PM
Wow I had no idea my op-ed piece would get so much play! I'm glad you've joined the discussion, and you seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject of Wonder Woman. You summed up exactly my problem with trying to get into Wonder Woman, and much more clearly than I originally did! Much like many of the other older heroes her continuity is just so off putting to newer readers like myself. With Batman you can easily go to the comic shop and pick up a few tpbs and your as good as gold, well except for the whole Batman RIP and battle for the cowl stuff, but other than that you can more or less jump in anywhere and feel at home. But with wonder Woman there are so many different takes it almost seems like a different character each time, and while long time readers can sort through it and make sense of it all it remains a mystery to new comers.

I have picked up a few of Gail's issues, mostly because I loved her run on birds of prey, her humor is amazing! It was picking up her run and my previous encounters with WW that inspired me to write this as I was having trouble reconciling all her history!

Again I'm glad you joined the discussion Jelebino, and now I want to read what everybody had to say on CBR.

@phin: I know what you mean, lately it has been not so subtle and more like they are pushing an agenda. I much rather when it leaves it open to debate, where it's there and you have to decide what you think.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 8:12 PM
Exactly!
Phinehas - 10/23/2009, 8:22 PM
I've never been to CBR, at least I don't remember going, but they have some chill people over there. It's absolutely insane that this piece made it so far, I had no idea it would get so many different responses. Thanks to all you guys for helping me out here(even you David).

and phin, I get that government intrusion isn't exactly a social issue per say but it is certainly a current event. I for one really enjoyed how Civil War dealt with it, the writers left it open so that readers could easily side with either Captain America or Tony Stark. While Stark was often written as the "villain" he remain sympathetic enough so that it was still open to interpretation as to who was right or wrong, which made for some really good reads.

From what I've read from some posts it seems that the writers, noticeably Gail, are trying to do right by WW so that future readers won't have the same confusion that I'm having(had?).
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 9:04 PM
YEAH! Wait. . . some people sided with Tony Stark?!?


MultiPurposePoni - 10/23/2009, 9:38 PM
That's a Cap I want to see!
Phinehas - 10/23/2009, 9:48 PM
I second that phin, Cap was great in Civil War. If only his death were allowed to actually have some kind of lasting impact.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 9:58 PM
Phine! I dont like it either that its Queen hippolyta in the nazi era OR Nubia. You said it perfectly:

"Those are convolutions that are not necessary for a good dramatic character." yes... do write a WW! I bet it would be great! =)

thwhtguardian: its WILD over there huh?!

multi! you didnt reply on the sparkly thread! lol!

*** this cap america is not the like the one in the avengers animated i saw**** i like this one much better.
KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 10:06 PM
It's awesome KIR. There were so many great points made! not to demean the discussion over here, but it was rather lopsided.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 10:25 PM
I felt like I was in ww heaven! I kept reading the comments and i felt like Phine had gotten mutant powers and multiplied! hahaha!

I dont think it was so lopsided at all. They may have worded it differently but it was still what we were basically saying here. They definitely went into MORE detail though.
KeepItReal - 10/23/2009, 10:55 PM
I meant here, most here seem to have shared my confusion, while over there they seemed to grasp her in much greater numbers. There is so much there to read. It's crazy. It is wonder woman heaven.
thwhtGuardian - 10/23/2009, 11:54 PM
LOL
Thank you, KIR. You are very sweet. I don't think I am patient enough, nor knowledgable enough (of the comic book publishing industry that is) to really do an epic WW retelling. I was speaking out of passion and not really from an idea of what it would cost(time+energy). I would take forever developing the story, then I would have to figure out how to translate to paneled pictures. Ugh. Too much. I'd lose steam and patience very quickly. I couldn't do it alone without the help of a good experienced comicbook editor.
Phinehas - 10/24/2009, 1:03 PM
CorndogBurglar - I knew that article was bullshit! No, no, NO!!! If WW was black, then fine. Using not just a black actress, but Beyonce, who is a Diana Ross clone/wannabe in the first place, would be disastrous!

This is the EXACT type of shit we need to try and avoid:stunt casting!! An over-eagerness to contemporize the material would COMPLETELY wipe out all of the canonic and classic moments we've all been waiting so long to see!!

The same can be said about using Sam Jackson for Nick Fury; now we've got people wanting to see an Ultimates movie when the intention was to finally create an AVENGERS flick! Aaargh!!!

I can't understand why so many CBM characters have been changed to be black! Can't they just make a movie about a character who is already black?!? Wesley Snipes, get moving already! If he isn't going to play the Black Panther, then at least produce the movie! Just get it out! IDK how Blade was made first AND became a huge success, but I digress...

My love for comics is fierce and passionate! They're the reason I learned to read, mostly on my own(!)at the age of two when my mother explained to me that the pictures had words to go along with them that told a story! From then on, with my mom's help, I became a VORACIOUS reader! My mom, a former collector herself, and my older siblings, three of whom were also cb readers, fully supported my hobby!! I had an amazing childhood! The thing I'm most happy about now is that I still have 95% of my collection that I started 31 years ago!

I've turned many a person on to the often unappreciated joys of reading comic books - and they all still read them! I've been considered by many who have met me to be a comic book expert, but I know making that claim on here would just invite grief, so I try to help where I can! I realize how prohibitive it can be for a new or younger reader to try to get into these icons that have been around for up to 70 years without help from someone more experienced and versed in the trade!! This is half of the reason why DC keeps trying to reinvent itself; the other half being that Marvel KICKED THEIR ASS!

What the problem truly stems from is the editiorial decisions made behind the scenes that casual fans and the general public are unaware of due to a lack of coverage by the mainstream media. Mort Weisinger and Julius Schwartz were responsible for keeping DC's icons dated and silly! Their ideas were outdated and the characters' and company's image suffered as a result!

Paul Levitz and Jeanette Kahn took over for Julie in the early 80's and things began to change, but DC was still stuck; everytime a title showed improvement, it was obvious that DC was attempting to "Marvel-ize" their comics, which made them appear to be copycats! So Crisis On Infinite Earths was the solution proposed to solve the dilemma! The problem with Crisis was that it threw out the good WITH the bad!!! So everything that the general public knew about DC's icons was now null and void!!! Thus creating a whole NEW set of problems!! To further exacerbate the problem, characters that DC purchased the rights to years earlier that formerly belonged to rival companies were folded into mainstream continuity as if they had been there from the(new)beginning, which again served to create confusion among casual readers!

So DC really shot itself in the foot, and went back again to revise things and bring back old favorites and popular concepts with Zero Hour!! Now we had multiple versions of star characters running around!! None of these decisions were made to improve content, only to boost sales, and that is where DC largely failed!

The editorial policies of the company just did not work! However something unexpected happened...a writer with a deep knowledge of DC's past history and a love for the golden, silver and bronze age came onboard and turned DC on it's ear! That writer was Brad Meltzer and the comic was Identity Crisis!

Somewhere along the way DC seemed to forget that the whole point of publishing comics was to do it to the best of one's ability! No one wants to read crap, much less buy it! So, inspired by the success created by Meltzer's loyalty to DC's past, a new initiative was underway to fix things once and for all! This turned out to be Infinite Crisis! What this series did was bring back the multiple earths that had previously existed in DC lore and force DC to admit contrition for indiscriminately wiping out EVERYTHING, good AND bad, in the first Crisis from 1985!

Now we have a new starting point where things are actually being logically EXPLAINED to readers within the context of a story, rather than facing a scenario where buyers have the rug pulled out from under them by a stalwart company that completely changes the status quo to cater to business-related commercial concerns, with the expectation that a new reader or casual fan(or a long-time one for that matter!)be able to keep up, thereby punishing the audience for its loyalty! Now, we are marching toward establishing a true COHESIVE continuity within what has become the DC "Universe", which was modeled after Stan Lee's genius conception from 1961!

So while Marvel has always had the better quality art, more realistic writing and a fresh bombastic approach to the art of making comics, DC had been stuck in a quagmire of old ideas that didn't work by a power drunk tyrant(Weisinger) and a man out of touch with contemporary audiences(Schwartz)! It took DECADES to correct all of this, but DC's characters are so ingrained in American pop culture that they've been able to weather the storm, which is absolutely amazing!!!!
JonF - 10/24/2009, 2:16 PM
Both Marvel and DC suffer from long seasons of drought in their writing. Some longer than others. Some problems are motivated by greedy attempts to shape the stories by marketing strategies as opposed to creative direction. Comics were successful as art presented to the public. Part of the public saw it for what it was and purchased them. When the publishers tried to deviate from the writer's own creative machinations, problems arose. Like when WW donned the white polyester jumpsuit accessorized by an M60, street-cred left by the time the first issue hit the rack. WW's archetypal essence was nowhere reflected in that rendition. FAIL. But Marvel is just as guilty of the same foibles and blunders that DC makes. But Marvel are fans self-righteously quicker to point out DC's weaknesses (which are almost all undeniable) before seeing the same in their own favored Marvel. Marvel charcters are diametrically different (neither for good or bad) than that of DC's. The designs for DC characters are archetypal. Whereas Marvel's are more human conditional. Meaning, DC will focus on the best and the worst in us. For example, Superman is the perfect man. Batman courageously goes beyond to mete out Justice. WW is a picture of refined feminine beauty. Sometimes these themes are too elemental for Marvel fans to enjoy. This is fine. The Marvel characters focus more on internal conflict and responsive emotion.
To sum up the difference, DC is the model to strive for, and Marvel is there as a model that you can identify with emotionally. But in no way do I see one over the other. One does appeal to me much more. But that is what I want.
Phinehas - 10/24/2009, 3:40 PM
@JonF/Phin: Seeing that you both are fans on comic canon, you might want to go check out the Cap costume poll results article where some guy just said Cap should be outfitted with infra-red optics on his helmet and a rail gun LOL
MultiPurposePoni - 10/24/2009, 7:58 PM
cbf reading the other comments because i am too tired (so im sorry if this has been said or anything similar)

But i personally like Frank Millers take on her in All Star Batman and Robin, the boy wonder. her first line has her calling a passerby a "sperm bank". if someone just took that wonder woman and chucked her in a solo series i think it might work out well. the femminist warrior who just wants to be held (primarily by superman). it's the equivalent of the whole 'tough man who secretly wants to be loved story' but with a woman, and that story always seems to work but with this twist it could be refreshing and define wonder woman as a character.
but then again this is coming from a person who mainly reads marvel comics and i dont know the whole DC etiquette so i dont know if this would work. but yeah that's my solution to the 'conundrum' as you put it.

but yeah really late so if this doesnt make sense i humbly apoligise.
also @ tea i really like the pic lol love a good sexist joke :D heres one for ya: 'why is a womans wedding dress white? to match the kitchen appliances'
Boekelaar - 10/25/2009, 8:09 AM
ok. Just taking a stroll through the comments... and a good chunk of them are calling WW a 'bitch' and 'go back to the kitchen' comments, etc.
Not that i don't agree that the writing has been lackluster and the characterization has been haphazard for WW, but perhaps the readers have to grow a little?
And don't get all defensive and insulting... 'cause i really don't care.
DC characterization has always been stilted. They go for the iconic rather than the personal, which works only to a point. Superman and Bats work well that way because they are the far ends of the extreme, but WW hovers in the middle and has no 'extreme' to draw from. And with so many writers taking stabs at her over the years, there's no consistency.
Someone here pointed out 'where's her definitive story?' and that's totally it. Where's her 'dark knight'?
cheers all.
merkasylum - 10/25/2009, 8:26 AM
I have really enjoyed this examination of WW. All of your comments have highlighted much of what I been trying to fathom of the character in the modern comics. I would like to add that WW is not the only character to suffer over the years but the Super-heroine has come a long way. I just receintly finished a great book related to this topic. If you want a better understanding of where female comic characters come from and how men have mishandled them over the years, check out the following:


"The Supergirls" by Mike Madrid


It covers both DC and Marvel and is very current with a copyright of this year 2009.
JYCowboy - 10/25/2009, 9:06 AM
Multi - Yeah, I voted on that poll! Comments like that one are what keep me posting on these boards! If things get heated, so be it!
JonF - 10/25/2009, 12:34 PM
Boekelaar, I'm not sure the sperm bank comment was one of her finest moments. I don't want to sound sexist, but I'm sure rabid feminism like that is a turn off too. On the whole it's never very good for a character to played to the extremes...because very few people actually think that way.
thwhtGuardian - 10/25/2009, 5:23 PM
twG-
Man! It sucks that you (WE!) have to qualify with a disclaimer of "I don't want to sound sexist". I completely understand why you feel you have to, believe you me. But it was a sexist thing to refer to men as merely sperm banks. (Rhetorically) Why do you have to defend your comments??? Granted, men of standing are in short supply these days. They have diminished in the shadows of the extreme barbarian or an effiminate soft-belly.
Phinehas - 10/25/2009, 6:15 PM
Yeah I really hate having to qualify my comments like that, but when ever I'm throwing the term rabid feminism around I feel the need to. I don't mean it to debase the whole movement, as it is a totally worthwhile cause that has still yet to reach its goal, but there are some that are so adamant that no matter how good their cause is I can't listen to them speak. And it's not just feminism, there are rabid democrats and republicans, rabid constitutionalists, in any movement there are bound to be people who just take it to far.
And in the case of all star batman and robin WW is portrayed as one of those people. It's one of the issues that caused me to write this piece, the way miller deals with her, or is allowed to deal with her character has always confused me. He's a great writer but what they allow to do with WW only helps to add confusion to her character as his works are often seen as the definitive version of the DC universe.
thwhtGuardian - 10/25/2009, 6:24 PM
Agree about Miller, his dark thematic bent seems only to fit certain scenarios rather than entire characters.

I've always felt that "feminism" has done more damage than it claims to correct. I have little regard for it. I suppose that is part of the appeal of WW. She is a contradiction that tries to find her place in the world yet hold to her ideals. I like that conflict. With that said, women as a "group" (I feel stupid saying that) should sensibly recieve respect. It seems counter-intuitive to withhold it. They are our mothers, our sisters, aunts, and helpers.

Rabid constitutionalists? I don't see it. The others, yes. But Constitutionalist? No. I don't see enough respect for it. I see it thwarted all the time over power plays.

All too often, it is violated by our leaders without even as much as a whimper.

Check out Murtha (his name reminds me of the beginning of another phrase):

Phinehas - 10/25/2009, 6:38 PM
????? this is still going on? dude... everyone at one time or another has said something out turn. Whether intentionally or not.. sperm bank?... guys do it to woman... with the boobs...and the butts.... now we have to say: "oops excuse me" either we need to all stop... or we all need to get thicker skins... there is no happy medium i think. Guys got it worst i think in a sense. now a days you cant even hold a door open for a woman or give a genuine compliment without people getting into a uproar. Dont get me wrong, i am all for equal opportunity and all that jazz... but you know i still like it when a gentleman holds the door for me. Or compliments my eyes, or says "i like your dress". It doesnt mean "i wanna jump your bones". Sometimes it means just that. You got nice eyes. You look pretty. If a woman compliments me I am equally gracious and feeling good. maybe i been hanging out with you guys too long?.... ??? lol...

In terms of WW... she is handled too careless sometimes. There are too many writers for her, so no consistency at times and there is no one to police what is being written about her. I wonder if charles moulten were still alive today how WW would be presented today.
KeepItReal - 10/25/2009, 6:48 PM
"women as a "group" (I feel stupid saying that) should sensibly recieve respect."

phine! you're killing me! lol! why do you say as a "group" and "sensibly"?

I feel women as an individual should also get the respect as well. And not in rations.. gg... Sometimes it took only one individual to get it going. But i also feel it should be earned. Some women you have to wonder about them. Just like some men. Here and there, you always get a few to make the exception.

rabid constitutionalist? gg... what an image that provoked!


KeepItReal - 10/25/2009, 6:53 PM
Wonder Woman just needs to get laid. End of story
MultiPurposePoni - 10/25/2009, 6:54 PM
Miller has some dark understanding of the Amazon. He chooses to ignore much of her character in favor of his vision of her as a "romantic" vessel for Superman. I don't believe he has much regard for what the charater is or what she can become.

IMHO this is what I have observed from "The Return of the Dark Knight" and "DK2".

His interpertation of the dark world of Batman will not allow the true lights that are the base personalities of both Diana or Clark.

In short, he don't get them.
JYCowboy - 10/25/2009, 6:57 PM
"In short, he don't get them."

"he's just not that into them"? haha.. couldnt resist...but yes... he just doesnt get them. =)

multi: she has! haha... guess thats not such a quick fix.. now when is punisher gonna be punished and get it up the ass? hmmm? enquiring minds want to know...
KeepItReal - 10/25/2009, 7:12 PM
yeah, I love miller's work but some of the things DC lets him do with characters is amazing. I mean the sperm bank was more than a comment it's pretty much symbolic of how miller portrays her at times. If I were to write say batman as a homosexual my comic would either A) be rejected, or B) labeled an other world story. But miller can write character how he pleases. I love the man, he's a solid writer but it boggles my mind some times.
thwhtGuardian - 10/25/2009, 8:00 PM
@KIR: Oh, he has. . . he has
MultiPurposePoni - 10/25/2009, 8:57 PM
twG, and JYCowboy-
Exactly, with Miller! There is evidence that he doesn't respect WW as a character.

KIR-
Because factions of women took it upon themselves to decry foul to the long standing foundations of Patriarchal models. Desiring to shake off the shackles of tyrannical machismo, they felt as though they speak on your behalf and those of ALL women. Now, therefore, we have "groups" that make up a good portion of "Studies" in areas of Liberal Arts; Women's Studies, African American Studies, Chicano Studies, Asian Studies, Anglo American Studies...oh wait! We're the supposed oppressors of all those other "groups"! Bad Phin (slapping hand)! Know your place!
In short, you're right! That as individuals, people should earn respect! Not people groups. I was speaking quasi-facetiously. Its difficult to convey that in print sometimes. I'm personally opposed to egalitarianism. Chivalry came with clear gender roles. Some will come to despise that statment. But I don't care. Men were made men by their fathers to be leaders of their homes. Responsibility will always fall on them. You never hear the term, "dead-beat moms". You more frequently hear of alimony or child support coming from a father. But on the other side, you don't hear of women paying alimony or child support nearly as much(I know that they're out there, please don't bother lambasting me with articles. The articles exist because its a phenomenon). Finally, I just want to say, its sensible to give what is clearly due in way of respect to women. Which includes but not limited to, compliments, opening doors, and coming to their defense.
If she says, "up yours! (followed by the bird)", I'll say God Bless you and be on my way.
Phinehas - 10/25/2009, 9:08 PM
Women aren't as sensitive as they some may have you believe. I've heard some of the most lewd and lascivious comments come out of a woman's mouth many times. That being said, the problem is interpersonal communication between the sexes. Neither side wants to be called out on their outward persona. Men don't want women to point out how emotional we can be just like women don't want us to point out how capable they are at being crude. It feels like we're stuck projecting archaic appearances of ourselves.
MultiPurposePoni - 10/25/2009, 9:28 PM
Emotional males are incomplete men! And women with lewd mouths doesn't make them less emotional. In fact, they may be compensating for a guarded heart. Furthermore, that isn't to say that they can't be hardened. But their are always exceptions to the rule.
The problems are not always communication, but agreement on where the lines of authority are.
Phinehas - 10/25/2009, 9:39 PM
Dude, you're totally missing my point.

"Emotional males are incomplete men!"

Ummm. . . what?
MultiPurposePoni - 10/25/2009, 9:41 PM
What's your point then?




Phinehas - 10/25/2009, 9:46 PM
That's the only way to deal with such sentiment phin, and if you didn't open the door you'd be just as evil.
I'm for egalitarianism on a personal level, treating everyone with the same amount of respect regardless of gender, race or social standing. However, in the bigger picture I don't think you should try and force everyone to be equal, people are going to be poor and people are going to be rich and some people are going to naturally have certain advantages over other people, trying to fix that by redistributing wealth and what not is a fools errand and only creates more inequality because now people feel entitled to better and those that make with out aid naturally are thought to have done it unfairly.
Its good on a small scale, but wrong on a large one.


edit:I missed out on all of that above me. Note to self refresh more.
thwhtGuardian - 10/25/2009, 9:46 PM
I'm with multi here...incomplete?
thwhtGuardian - 10/25/2009, 9:50 PM
Phin: The point, my friend, is that men and women are not that different (i.e. we can be just as emotional, they can be just as crude).

What does that have to do with men writing about super heroines? Most male writers seem to categorize these women as either feminists or bimbos. They have a hard time creating the character's persona because they haven't realized they share the same traits as the male ones. They end up relying on archaic standards in an effort to make them believable.

Did they ever have to discuss how 'manly' Batman was to make him relevant to fans? Of course not. His machismo isn't what makes him a great hero. Same goes for WW. If they just stopped forcing the uber-feminist agenda for a second, they might make her more relative.

BTW: You REALLY need to explain that 'incomplete' statement.
MultiPurposePoni - 10/25/2009, 9:59 PM
"Desiring to shake off the shackles of tyrannical machismo, they felt as though they speak on your behalf and those of ALL women."

its true. you could lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. Some woman just dont want it or dont care.

"Bad Phin (slapping hand)!" gggg... baaaaaad phine! :D

"I'm personally opposed to egalitarianism." it would never happen. its just not ever going to happen. Throughout history... it has never happened. its idealism. utopia. You will always have your lords of the manor and the serfs and the peasants. The rich and the poor. c'est la vie. It would be nice, cool but not very realistic. Like thwhtGuardian said on a personal yes. But on a wider level not only do they feel entitled but it will just stagnate. How could you flourish if everyone is "equal"? Its when people are malcontent and desperate and have that drive that you get the most push for advancement. When there is more of a need than someone who is just satisfied to sit and wait for things to come to them.

you don't hear of women paying alimony or child support nearly as much" no. And its a shame.They should be equally blasted just like the men. Loser is a loser in any gender. Its like the woman pedophilers now with teenage boys. If its a woman everyone is like "what is the big deal? the boy probably wanted it!" it doesnt have the same affect as when you hear its a man . Then you hear the outrage.

"Which includes but not limited to, compliments, opening doors, and coming to their defense."

I dont see anything wrong with chivalry and how opening a door for a woman takes away her feministic rights. If she doesnt need any help with a man coming to her defense no need to give the bird. At least the man thought enough to try. Like thwhtguardian said, then the man would be evil by not trying. Its so petty and trivial to go to that extreme. I like how we still have chivalry today. And it should be done with every and all women. Young old short tall skinny fat ugly beautiful smart dumb. I see it as a well bred man and i for one appreciate it. I think if courtesy were shown to everyone around then you cant go wrong.

"Women aren't as sensitive as they some may have you believe." multi! you met my mom?! lol and yes. I have met some CRUDE woman in the military! i was in shock women could be like that! ewwww!
KeepItReal - 10/25/2009, 10:34 PM
That's how I feel as well, it seems that the male writers are almost afraid of Wonder Woman. Most likely it's the same fear I expressed above when using the term rabid feminists, or really using the term feminist in anyway. It seems impossible for so many great writers to have so much trouble writing her if not for fear.
thwhtGuardian - 10/25/2009, 10:36 PM
Look, it's simple. You can't depict WW as a man hater and expect a large fan base. I would guess that around 70% of comic readers are male, so right off the bat most would have a near impossible time relating to her.

I never liked seeing her look down on men as inferior, it really does nothing but negatively alienate her. How do you portray her as 'superior' to men without making her seem derogatory? How do you show her as being socially awkward without appearing as a savage?

Easy. Make her a chauvinist. What if she was the dominant side of the male/female relationship? You know those kinds of guys: treating women like playthings, calling them pet names, being overtly chivalrous, etc. Make her the female equivalent. Men would relate to her because we all know that mindset, even if we don't personally act on it. Women would like her because it would, for once, turn the tables on the 'knight in shinning armor' stereotype.

I think it would be funny as all hell to see her being introduced at a JLA meeting and having her put her arm around Wally West and call him 'sweetie' :) Of course, that's a bit exaggerated, but you get the idea.

I've only read about a dozen of WW's solo books, so maybe I've missed if this was tried before, but I think it would work well.
MultiPurposePoni - 10/25/2009, 11:10 PM
It would certainly be interesting to see, but I don't know how much more pallet-able it be than the man hating wonder woman of miller's world.

I just finished the first three gail books and I have to say I'm enjoying them. I loved birds of prey, and her run on deadpool was decent too, especially since I don't really like him. she has a great sense of humor, and it comes across really well in print which is hard to do. It's head and shoulders above the jodi piccolt ww stories I read a few months back.
thwhtGuardian - 10/25/2009, 11:18 PM
@twg: I get what you're saying, I'm just trying to put a spin on WW's personality that doesn't involve hatred. It's funny because I've had a couple of women ask me in the past if WW was a lesbian, and at times I honestly had no idea. The best way I could explain it to them was: Well, she hates men in general, but likes a few of them.

I just don't get how you can have a 'hero' show unabridged hatred towards a populace. Could you imagine a white superhero that just hates black people as a whole? It would never fly with the general public. Even the heroes that continuously display feelings of hate project it towards a certain group because of a life changing occurrence (i.e. Batman and the Punisher).

I've always felt that villains are the ones that see the world as 'black' and 'white', where as heroes live in the gray.
MultiPurposePoni - 10/25/2009, 11:36 PM
which comics have you been reading? looking down on men? The only time she was like that was in THAT [frick]ING WW ANIMATED CARTOON!!! UGH! I HATED THAT [frick]ING ANIMATED CARTOON!!!

but yeah, other than that I never got that from her.

"Women would like her because it would, for once, turn the tables on the 'knight in shinning armor' stereotype." no, not getting that. I dont think thats the answer. To make her more relatable to men would not be to make her a reverse chauvanist herself. To put her arm around Wally and calling him sweetie would prove what? Not all men do that. Its their personality that displays that. If she is socially awkward she would be so with both sexes. What is the female version of a giggolo? You know it would not translate well for a woman.

I thought to appeal to the men, and relate to them would be being strong of mind and body. To fight for whats right. To give as good as they got. Not show emotion. Weakness. Now you have someone who is doing that and being "superior" on how she "looks down" on men in your opinion and you are knocking her for it. IF you want to lighten her up... of course she has been shown to have a flirty, quirky side to her. Wonder Woman is strong without having to apologize for it.
KeepItReal - 10/25/2009, 11:37 PM
@KIR: I wasn't referring to her 'warrior' side, just her relationships. I think we all know already how strong a fighter she is and how she stands for justice. I just want to find a way to show her awkwardness in a 'man's world' without having her looking down on men. You know, just a bit more playful.

It wasn't just the animated film that portrayed her that way, just look at All Star B & R. These are some of the modern interpretations of her that new fans believe is canon.

And I didn't say ALL men were like that, but we all KNOW people who act that way so we can relate to character that acts somewhat the same. Know what I mean?
MultiPurposePoni - 10/25/2009, 11:43 PM
ahhhh...playful. I think the word chauvanist was wrong then... you mean a lighter side to her... warmer side. gotcha ;) tracking now.... but if she didnt show a more serious side to her she wouldnt be taken serious. People would try to be delegating her to the kitchen! to play devils advocate.
KeepItReal - 10/25/2009, 11:52 PM
Again, I'm not talking about when it's time for her to kick some ass. There has to be an equal balance. I want to see her either A) Become lighter with her relationships, more 'playful' if you will; or B) Get disgusted with our world and just become the villain for awhile. I would love to see her go toe to toe with Supes and show him a little humility :)

BTW, I just finished reading All Star B&R for the second time and I gotta say, that is the worst POS comic I've read in a loooooooong time. I was hoping that if I read it again I would see it in a different light, but nope, it was the same.
MultiPurposePoni - 10/26/2009, 12:02 AM
yeah, I'm not a fan. I don't mink the art but otherwise it's just odd
thwhtGuardian - 10/26/2009, 12:21 AM
again... i said i got that. I understood when you said:
"I wasn't referring to her 'warrior' side, just her relationships." that you meant you weren't talking about her kicking ass. And no there doesn't have to be an equal balance. She already got to the point where she is warring with herself and loosing faith in Identity Crisis. & She went toe to toe with Superman when he's loosing it. She even goes toe to toe with Batman.

Its either you get her or you don't. What if...and could've been is really a moot point. I would love it if more people would like her more but if you already decided you don't like her... nothing that anyone says is going to change that. Its like Green Lantern. or Green Arrow. No one is going to change my mind that they are mediocre. I like seeing them, but they're not my favorites. I don't put them down, because to someone else they get them. Its just how the ball bounces. =)
KeepItReal - 10/26/2009, 12:24 AM
I don't think Diana would throw a hug around Wally just to be chummy. She is more reserved than that because she was/is royalty (even a former deity if that still appliclable). I am not saying she would be humorless but less given to signs of affection. Like Batman, if she laughs its startling. I have no doubt she would comfort with a hug, say if Wally was grieving but edicate in a royal house would have some guidelines for such behavior. Power Girl has the super-bitch image all tied up. Wonder Woman should be above it.


What writers should depict is how do other women reguard WW and what authority does she command in the DC Universe. We have seen that she comes from a mythical kingdom that can yield great destructive power (Amazons Attack). So how would such a culture influance her upbringing? What would also make her a role-model to other heroines and women?


What is easiest to observe in the modern comics is her role in the leading trinity of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. I love those stories when told well. Superman is defined by super science, while Batman is very natural as a human. But what defines Wonder Woman who is based on magic and faith? Those concept have faded some in modern day but are relevant to the needs of the team.


I have always felt to strenthen WW as a solo character you would need a better understanding of Greek Mythology and Amazon legend. Perez did that. Now give her a stronger mission other than preaching peace while defending the weak. Maybe she should be more like Thor. Have her adopt the guise of a normal woman to relate better to "man's world" so she can impart that knowledge to (sorry can't remember the name of her home) Paradise Island. In a sense, this would be teaching her humility like Thor.


Reading "The Supergirls" book I mention above, provided a clear understanding that WW has had a most rocky hero career. Editors and writers just didn't know what to do with her. Her original intent was to draw girl readers which failed, on whole. Each writer has brought a new attitude to her title so she has to be the most schizophrinic heroine from decade to decade. IMHO, DC needs to estabilish a writers bible to keep some elements of her character stable. Maybe Gail can get that done.

Oops, wall of text. I'll shut up now.
JYCowboy - 10/26/2009, 12:30 AM
thwhtG, I'm glad you had a good impression of the CBR board. Yes, there are both witty and nice people on it; but I hope it goes on being friendly, because we might have skimmed the most interesting topics already, and if the smart people turn away, the less smart will be left. We'll see.

Sorry I'm so late replying: necessities, you understand.

So, to Wonder Woman's elusive appeal. Not an easy matter to pin down, I admit. For me there are several layers to it all.

Basically, I like to see women win, and have a good time. The Muppets did one sketch with Miss Piggy as Wonder Woman, a giant chicken was involved, and I couldn't help but laugh, because it worked. She was perfect! She didn't need any complex damn motivation, you could see she was put on this earth to deliver the roundhouse punch. And there's a lot of Diana in that. The way you remember Lynda Carter, she just couldn't wipe that smile off her face.

Some writers fail because they believe a character has no depth unless they gain a deep experience of tragedy, loss, weakness and all that. Poor things, they were taught it in English Lit class. They set about wiping Wondy's smile off, under the impression this makes her more human. Well nuts to that. Remember how Chris Claremont kept on making that mistake? Not saying the Phoenix Saga wasn't a classic, but Jean was worth a few dozen issues happily smashing Sentinels, first, surely? And then he did it to Storm. And then he did it to Illyana. And by the time they did it to Ms Marvel and Claremont tried to revive her, his sense that you become a significant figure by being brutalized was just too ingrained.

Again I say nuts. Diana's eternal combat-readiness isn't because she's filled with any soul-shaking inner rage. It's because she was raised as half Miss Piggy and half Miss Sunshine. You might want to compare the big goofy grin that comes over Marvel's Hercules, every time he gets to say: "The Gift of Combat!".

Another thing, I like good world-building, and for my heroes to have long intriguing adventures exploring their complex worlds. Such as Thor, and Doctor Strange. Hal Jordan's world was megaparsecs big, Barry Allen's world turned into a pulp-science funhouse. Diana was cheated of that for decades -- it was kind of villain of the month or a romance tangle that would have shamed Pat Boone. Then the Perez Reboot came along with an epic of gods and Amazons just for the origin, and it seemed that Wonder Woman had her own world of challenge and discovery at last.

You don't need the hero to have a load of inner conflict for this. Alice did perfectly well in Wonderland, just by being persistently polite and logical; Dorothy ruled in Oz, just by being straightforward and good-hearted. Neither of them was embarrassingly sickly-sweet either. Now granted, you have a hard time defining their personalities beyond that, and they're a touch difficult to write in the classic manner, but no literary fool is complaining about that. I don't get nearly enough of the Strange New World thing with Wonder Woman, but there is some.

Oh, and another thing. Nobody seems to have a problem with the complexity of Alice's and Dorothy's worlds making them difficult to get into. I dunno, maybe they wouldn't attract a fanbase these days, if they came out as monthly comics.

Now I think in those analogies, there's a clue as to how to have Diana treat men. If they behave like idiots, then make them real sideshow exhibits. Make them Tweedledum and Tweedledee, while Wondy stays calm and amused. If men behave like sane people, make them supporting characters whom you can identify with, and Wondy can make them allies. She doesn't have to despise men; she never has, in any of her versions. She is, however, superior to idiots. We really need a recurring male character in WW, who is a transparent depiction of Frank Miller, just so we can all laugh at him.

Enough for now. More to come.

jelebino - 10/26/2009, 1:39 AM
I really like the dorthy and alice comparison to wonder woman, I think if done in a similar way it could work rather well. It would make sense for to view that world of man as an almost surreal environment, but she should not however be so detached as to seem helpless or utterly clueless of normal things...like pumping gas.

I just finished reading the circle, and I have to say the renegade amazons were the best part! I never thought about the ramifications of Diana being the only child born to the amazons! That is such a great story idea, it's a race of woman who have been bereft of the joy of motherhood, that has to create some severe problems. I want more of that!
thwhtGuardian - 10/26/2009, 10:30 AM
While I'm not a huge WW fan per se (i.e. Dont collect her comics), I do enjoy her character, particularly in JLA and Trinity.

I love the warrior/ ambassodor of peace duality of her character. Its an analogus archtype we see in real life. Just look at our military and police forces. They bring peace by making war. This paradox isnt a condtradiction, but a sad truth we live with. Violence and injustice are malignant things that grow exponentially unless they are stopped. Not all criminals and perpetators of violence can be reasoned with, made felt guilty, and disciplined with prison or other forms of capital punishment. There are people who don't care or are devout enough to whatever cause that they ignore the little voice in their soul that tells them to stop. Just look at the Taliban, crazed cultists, and serial criminals. Unfortunately, the only way to stop these people is with violence. Only after they are stopped can peace be brought to their victims. Thus, while it may seem hypocritical for soldiers to promate peace through violence, its an unfortunate truth that we cannot tolerate intolerance. Wonder Woman is the epitomie of this; in order to protect the world and spread peace she has to fight those that would endanger it. All heroes do this to one degree or another, but WW is one of the few that truly embodies it.

Shes a very strong character that, for reasons beyond her control, is often over-looked or underused. Confusing archtypes, odd accessories (I dont know how many people told me they think shes lame because of the invisible plane and lasso of truth), poor or mediocre writing and the fact that she was a female character in a medium dominated by males when she was created perhaps diminished her appeal. The feminist aspect also alienates some readers, though it can be said it helped build upon her character just as much and even brought in more female readers. Also, at least in JLA, she has another problem; Superman. I love superman (hell Im wearing one of his shirts as I write this), but he does overshadow his league members quite a bit. Hes strong in muscle and leadership like WW, smart like Batman, fast like Flash, ect. Wonder woman, as a strong ambassodor of peace and master warrior/ tactician, should be by all means the leader of the JLA, but it seems Superman always gets the glory. He always seems to come up with the plans, gives imspiring speeches then saves the day, and leaves WW in the dust. Of course one can argue that the exalted nature of superman makes him the most suitable to lead. Flash is the fast one, Batman the smart one, WW the leader and Superman the balance, but he seems to match, or even surpass, the others at these things. That being said, I'd love JLA to start a new series where she leads and superman acts like the dotting mentor, ready to help but not so much he has the others look like their second to him, know what I mean?
Shadowelfz - 10/26/2009, 1:12 PM
that would be an interesting arch to be sure.
thwhtGuardian - 10/26/2009, 1:46 PM

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