Speculation Mounts That THUNDERBOLTS* Could End Up Being A DARK AVENGERS Movie

@Apophis71 - There could be some basis to this though. The * implies a potential name change. And perhaps Marvel Studios is going with the Dark Avengers as the next team. If you look at the current MCU and all the projects, They are all team ups. Daredevil & Punisher, Deadpool & Wolverine, Fantastic 4, and others. So it seems they are pushing for micro teams to have unite for Secret Wars and The Dark Avengers to be a covert Avengers task force full of Anti-Heroes. Wouldn't surprise me if they recruit The Punisher.

@Apophis71 - If they do Masters of Evil they definitely need Hela back.

@DravenCorvis - yeah these are just theories the writer found on Tumblr or some idiots Patreon

@SonOfAGif - they really dont.

@DravenCorvis - What about the disappointment from them purposefully misleading the audience, like with Pietro from WandaVision?

@SonOfAGif @Apophis71 - I agree with you guys that this could be an interesting way for them to go. I mean, rosters aside, the concepts of the Dark Avengers and Thunderbolts are not THAT far apart, and probably not far enough apart that it would make sense for Marvel to differentiate them as 2 separate entities (at least the GA might be like "Didn't we see this already"). So "Thunderbolts*" might serve as an origin story of sorts for the Dark Avengers (which could be the title of a potential sequel to this movie). Not necessarily setting up an evil team, but more like a black ops team kinda like X-Force but controlled by the US government. Basically what Ross has been wanting since "CA:CW".

Keep in mind, we now know that Ross asks Sam to create a new Avengers team in "CA:BNW" and it could happen that when Ross says that he wants a government controlled team to do secret/black ops missions at their behest Sam refuses (like in "CA:CW") so Ross goes to Val to have her put together the team, all of which makes sense (to me at least). If that ends up being the case this could be a considerably more interesting movie than it initially seemed.

@StSteven - Wherever this is all going do think this is only the start of it and likely the only film called Thunderbolts we'll get. The reason being this specific roster is perfect for only certain types of things as basicaly a bunch of mostly spies and assassins. To elevate it to any real Avenger level team needs more than just that, you need your Thor types, Iron Man type and Hulk types to become any form of Avengers, new or Dark. If however this is an acquisition team, whilst also maybe testing potential for which could be included on an Avengers type team, retrieving everything from an OP character like Sentry or Vibranium for power armor. THEN it IS a means to an ends of creating one of the three rumored Avengers teams we were getting, and from a wider MCU POV a way to also intro new antagonist group/team to fill the void of not having HYDRA, AIM or OSCORP currently.

@DravenCorvis - I want the Madisynn is Mephisto payoff...

@ObserverIO - Every single member of the team has been part of an iteration of a Thunderbolts team in the comics (putting aside stuff like it isn't a comic accurate Tasmaster and the like). The question is more are they are a mostly villains in disguise type of version, a sort of hero team of the suicide squad ilk, full hero team or something else.

STILL think that Zemo will turn up, likely with a Masters of Evil team of some form but we'll see, just too many Super Soldiers in it to not draw him out considering he has been fully setup as being against those.

At minimum the * suggests that maybe it isn't the real official name of the team or it at least has an AKA name, however could suggest that by the end some have switched to being part of a full on villain team (likely Bucky and Yelena surviving but not joining) and the end credit will be the name of Zemo's team (if I am in the correct ballpark) NOT Thunderbolts as would be the norm, that replaces what had been the Thunderbolt one (so in effect the film has two names instead of one).

@ObserverIO - Cept it is even less like the comic Dark Avengers, any version of, than multiple versions of Thunderbolts are as all that is needed for this to turn into what folk expect the original Thunderbolts concept to be is for Zemo to turn up with a few other characters and it become Masters of Evil cos ultimately that was what the original Thunderbolts was, Masters of Evil in disguise, not a real new team at all but a pseudonym of another pre-existing team, a villainous one, that returned to that original team name.

We can nitpick about original intent and which comic iterations are true to that or not, point is all the characters have been antagonists at various points in MCU history that we know are in it, all adaptions of characters who had been at various points in time in the comics villains, and all have at one point or another been members of an iteration of Thunderbolts.

Thus starting out with, at government direction, a suicide squadesque take on Thunderbolts being formed, in the absence of an Avengers team, and at the end having Master of Evil revealed would be much the same as the original run in many ways even if the starting point differs slightly.

@ObserverIO - bingo! You get it

@ObserverIO - Also need to keep in mind if they DID do an exact copy of the original story a bunch of the members of Zemo's team would all want to be real hero's by the end and some would go straight back to villains so...

...anyway, it will be what it will be.

@ObserverIO - You would need to have fully established the Masters of Evil first before the film doing a direct adaption of the Thunderbolts story, they would then have to go on multiple missions to slowly gain the trust and respect, then you would need the presumed dead Avengers to return and the reason why Zemo did all of that (to gain access to SHIELD records) would need to be changed...

Having a handfull of hero origins who then come together as a team, fairly easy to do.

Fully creating a list of multiple well established villains across dozens of stories, then forming a team of villains, then pretending to actualy be a team of heroes and gaining the trust doing full hero stuff on several missions, then revealing they are the villan team, but some grew to like being heroes and/or thought they were supposed to be reforming to be heroes not just pretending for villanious reasons etc etc...

Not as easy, impossible in 2hrs and probably wouldn't attract the GA as would need WAY too much homework or to be a super nerd like us and they wouldn't have a clue who almost anyone was (least all the ones they picked have been in the prior films and/or shows) and less likely to be led to believe they were watching a hero team that turned out not to be a hero team. It is a push for the GA as it is using the known characters they have to be interested, all unknowns bar Zemo no chance.

...can't do all that in a 2hr film, would need to all basicaly be unknown characters OR do a loose adaption where they have been previously used antagonists are in the shades of grey area and could go full villain OR full hero. However your kinda overlooking the point that Thunderbolts was only EVER a name only thing as they were not Thunderbolts with that first team they were Master of Evil with a fake name.

What works in comics after decades laying the path, takes place over dozens of comics then has decades of the aftermath cannot always be directly translated.

@ObserverIO - Which is sorta what they are doing by using characters who were villains at one point or another cos Hammer, Mordo and Xu Xialing were less villains than any of these we are getting have been, Bullseye hasn't even been in the MCU properly yet, Wanda to be dead, Namor isn't going to be working for any humans yet and Ultron too OP to be under Zemo...

...however the whole fakeout of making them look like Avengers then reveal doesn't work for adaption anywhere near as well as it did in the comics cos spoilers ruin it so all or nothing for OW and STILL need to make HUGE shortcuts and changes so wouldn't come close to being the same story anyway.

At least with the way they are going, picking all the ones in the shades of grey area, it is less predictable who could go full villain by the end, who could go hero as no time to do what they did in the comics to sell full villains ending up staying as a hero team...

...but then after that there was multiple other times in differing ways when the team was again full villains including the first time Yelena was supposed to be on it but then revealed to be Nat disguised as Yelena to infiltrate them they can pull from if wanting it be villains in disguise storyline. As I say twelve versions of a small team plus the Thunderbolts army iteration they can pull aspects from. Till we know precisely how it will all play out wrong for any of us to assume they are going with a full hero one or a suicided squad type iteration as we don't even know with certainty if the person in charge is a good guy or villain yet.

@dagenspear - I do get that but Ghost and Taskmaster haven't REALY had a redemption arc at all yet to speak of, the latter of which is a total unknown with her having been mind controlled when she was a full villain and the former only opted to play nice due to needing the stuff from the QR so wouldn't take much to go full villain again (and A Goliath has STRONG ties to Zemo, even if not the same one).

Why I am hoping some additional full villains do appear alongside Zemo as the main antagonists and can easily have Ghost and Taskmaster join his side, Red Guardian likely snuffs it and Bucky isn't even supposed to be in the team at first according to recent rumors. At least they didn't go with the heroic age version led by Luke Cage anyway which would be daft as the first MCU iteration :D

@ObserverIO - For sure, fingers crossed it is at least a decent movie, pref a great one oviously however they play it and hope they manage to cont to keep most of it under wraps (or at least enough mud in the water we aren't sure what is true or not).

@dagenspear - Your just nitpicking, both were used as antagonists up until the very end of the films, precise definitions are kinda meaningless and did state Taskmaster is a blank slate as she was brainwashed so could be anything without that on the spectrum from devil to saint but more likely to end up never a true hero to my mind, antihero maybe and easily could turn out is full villain. Also needs to be pointed out that in MCU timeline both haven't actualy been seen with Ghost and Taskmaster for about a decade (both were antagonists pre or around the same time as IW, 5yr gap, then time elapsed since Endgame).

Taskmasters is NOT like Hawkeye who started out hero, did villain stuff under Loki's control, then hero again as all we got was Taskmaster fighting the protagonists throughout Black Widow and basicaly nothing after released from that control.

This is the whole point however, trickier to do the first comic iteration where they were all full, well established villains pretending to be hero's as if they had been set up as 100% evil villains we would know from the get go by cast list even if in disguise. There would be no surprise reveal and I'd argue almost impossible to convincingly do the some choosing to stay heroes at the end and sell it to the GA after only one or two missions not dozens of comics worth of them.

Thus going with ones that are less defined, grey areas and relative blank slates that have been antagonists who could go either way works better and also includes characters we could easily see being killed thus raising the stakes. The other way they could have gone is make it blatantly the Thunderbolts army version that were all in jail that was undeniably a suicide squad affair.

This way they can go from something similar in general theme to Thunderbolts I where it turns out Valentina has villainous intent creating a group of supposed hero's even if obvious differences. That could lead to some forming their own actual hero team at the end whilst others join a full villain one which COULD lead into a loose adaption of the second comic Thunderbolts team arc where they are hero's then assisted when needed by having captured villains the option to help or go to jail thing as part of the Thunderbolt army.

However it isn't entirely clear and the uncertainty means we are guessing which way it all will go and if they could be more heros or more toward the villain side with each member, don't know if they are being made to do good things or bad ones, lot of shades of grey making it less easy to know how it will all pan out which in some ways makes it more interesting.

@dagenspear - If's, who were antagonists regardless specifics of how or why, work well however for a character presented as part of a hero team that turns out to actualy be a villain fitting the mold of the original concept, why I say your nitpicking, lol.

We don't know what paths those two went down in the decade on the timeline since they last featured thus can readily be sold as possibly Bucky like (red in the ledger but reformed) but easily could also be believable they have actualy descended into full villains in the interim offscreen if that is where they go with them.

When they are fully known as undeniable evil villains near impossible in live action adaption to ever convince they are heroes as the cast list alone would give it away. In a comic just keep them in costume and no clue present to tip off the reader unless the writer chooses to reveal their real identity. The if's and grey zones work better if keeping anywhere close to the original iteration of used for villanious purposes to do what is percieved to be heroic then revealed to be villain (with some opting to stay/become heroes).

As I stated elsewhere the other option would be to have almost all unknown characters, but harder to sell that to the GA (and for the execs to be open to risk spending money doing so) than a collection of known supporting characters and/or antagonists in the grey zone. Likely why Bucky, due to HOW well known and could believe these other characters history is similar (have been on the wrong side but reformed or never were bad but corrupted into doing bad things) has been included in the cast list of team members even if isn't actualy on the team at the start at all and only has a supporting role in the film. It helps sell it otherwise would be too much on Yelena and the Marvel brand to sell it and maybe to a lesser extent Red Guardian whilst also aiding a perception these are all good guys all be it with murky pasts (even if they are NOT good guys).

@jonathanstrange - But Bucky IS in the movie. He’s been in it from the beginning..?