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Evolution Of The Superhero Movie

Check out this chart detailing the humble beginnings and huge boom in the Superhero Movie. It doesn't cover all CBM's though, so no Hellboy or Constantine or the like...


Interesting to see it all laid out. Unsurprisingly, Batman tops the grosses and the biggest bombs are The Punisher movies! But hey, as we all know, cash does not always equal quality. If it did, "Watchmen" would be up their with TDK and a certain Joel Schumaker movie would have made considerably less than Howard The Duck.

Click on the link below for a bigger pic.
8 Yes
0 No
RorMachine
11/22/2009
Koldcast.com

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103 Comments

Both Punishers bombed worse than Catwoman?
breakUbatman - 11/22/2009, 2:06 PM
OH SNAP! I can't believe Ledger made Michael Caine forget his lines.
gibbyblaylock - 11/22/2009, 2:06 PM
I can't read anything on there!

*check out my video in fan-fic*
peterparker420 - 11/22/2009, 2:10 PM
Cool article (but Watchmen was awful... in my opinion, just putting that in there)
FattSmelliott - 11/22/2009, 2:11 PM
Catwoman probably made a few spondoolics from the male demographic going to ogle Halle Berry..but yeah, surprising eh?

PP, click on the link underneath for a larger pic.

RorMachine - 11/22/2009, 2:11 PM
ZACK SNYDER FOR THE SUPERMAN REBOOT!!!!!!!!!!!
Ozymandias - 11/22/2009, 2:17 PM
Ozymandias- I'm with you on that one!!

Ror- thanks I figured it out!!
peterparker420 - 11/22/2009, 2:23 PM
awesome find ror. i hope this doesnt keep them from making a new punisher, though. hopefully marvel will get the rights bak (although i liked war zone)

woo hoo!
jallanr - 11/22/2009, 2:24 PM
Interesting Facts.........

1)Batman franchise = $2.9billion grossed
*TDK grossed $1billion on it's own

2)Batman franchise = $2.9billion from 6 movies
*Spiderman Franchise = $2.5 billion from only 3 movies
Kes - 11/22/2009, 2:42 PM
Wow! I have a group of followers now! Ever since I first mentioned Zack Snyder for the reboot, everyone wants him now! Im gonna do a poll on this soon.
Ozymandias - 11/22/2009, 2:44 PM
The Superman franchise is dead, Bryan Singer killed it.

However there is hope...one man can change everything.

And that man is...

ZACK SNYDER!!!!!!!!!!

Ozymandias - 11/22/2009, 2:47 PM
The Punisher starring Thomas Jane was considered a flop? To whom? That movie was awesome!

redrum010 - 11/22/2009, 2:57 PM
I would have rated the 2004 Punisher movie higher than a lot of movies, including Catwoman, most of the Supermans & X-Men Origins: Wolverine...
Wiredwizard - 11/22/2009, 3:06 PM
Sorry OZY, Zack Snyder is not right for a Superman movie - Watchmen was a masterpiece but Superman is completely different and IMO doesnt suit Snyder's directorial style.

Great article ROR! :)
JoshW - 11/22/2009, 3:12 PM
@Josh-I agree snyder should NOT do the Superman reboot. He should do The Dark Knight Returns if anything.

I thought Howard the Duck was the worst CBM, then Elektra, then Blade Trinity and Superman III and IV
BatmanKnight - 11/22/2009, 3:19 PM
@ Ozymandias:

I dont think the superman franchise is dead just yet. Superman returns definitely put it into a coma. But it will just take the right approach to bring it back. I definitely don't think that Zack Snyder is the man for the job though, AT ALL. I love 300 and Watchmen, but he would probly have difficulty making a GREAT superman story. His stories are too dark. That's where he thrives. A superman movie could have dark things happening around it, but it still has to be a superman story.
superman7 - 11/22/2009, 3:32 PM
Wow, that a pretty cool chart. Is there a way to make it more readable?

Oh, want to think about something to make nightmares? What If... (learning from his mistakes as he claims) Joel "Batman Killing" Schumacher reboot Superman? Would it be less reverant than what Singer did? Think about it before justly flaming the idea to Modesty Blaze hell. BTW, Modesty Blaze is an uncredtied CBM flop to.
JYCowboy - 11/22/2009, 3:34 PM
Thanks Josh..and I have to agree, Snyder is a fantastic director but Supes really isn't his style..I mean, im sure he could make a good movie, but there are other directors I would choose first if it came down to it. IMO nobody would make a Superman movie like Stephen Speilberg!

Wirewizard, I liked Jane's Punisher too..I wouldn't say it was awesome, but yeah , certainly better than a lot of the movies on the chart.

JY, cmon man, I realize Superman Returns isn't the most popular movie, but do you really see ANY parallels between what Singer did to Superman and what Shitmacker did to Batman? People whine about Returns lack of action and the Super Kid and all that stuff, but at the very least Singer made a competent movie, it wasn't everyones cup of tea but surely nobody sees it as the absolute travesty that B & R was.
RorMachine - 11/22/2009, 3:45 PM
No Snyder for Superman, maybe Doomsday, but that's it.

I don't want to see Superman chopping a guy's arm off and cutting a rapist's head in half with a meat cleaver! ;)

JJ Abrams is the man for the Man of Steel!

InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/22/2009, 3:59 PM
Heres what you can do is:

RIGHT CLICK AND SAVE THE IMAGE

OR

RIGHT CLICK, VIEW IMAGE IN NEW WINDOW

You can see the pic in High-Res!!!!!

:D
Haque - 11/22/2009, 4:00 PM
superman7- zack's movies are too dark, but thats what is
great about them, the superman movies
need a huge kick in the ass, and Snyder is
the man to do that, a "dark" superman movie
is what we need. Now im not saying supes
should go around killing people(that's not
supes) but he needs a dark undertone for even
me to watch a superman movie, i'll say this
again there is no good live action superman
movies, there is just SUPERMAN/DOOMSDAY
animated movie, a great movie with a dark
undertone!
peterparker420 - 11/22/2009, 4:00 PM
ROR: Stephen Speilberg is a great choice and looking at his past movies he'd probably deliver the right amount of action and decent storytelling that would keep everyone happy! IMO, J J Abrams could also do a lot with the franchise as well - to me, he's already proven that he can take a franchise many had lost interest in with Star Trek and breath new life into it - his take on Superman could be brilliant!
JoshW - 11/22/2009, 4:03 PM
Superman really needs a reboot asap. im not sure about Zack Synder should do the reboot cause he will do loads of slow-mo in every fight scene.

guys have you seen this fan made trailer of the green lantern.

jazzman - 11/22/2009, 4:05 PM
Not everything has to be dark now, jesus. Ever since The Dark Knight came out, everyone thinks all CBM's need to be dark now.

You know what other CBM had a dark undertone? Spider-Man 3! How well did that work out?

Not all superheroes fit dark films, Superman is not one of those who fit.

Abrams = Superman

Oh, and Routhboot FTW.
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/22/2009, 4:07 PM
lol the Green lantern trailer good up until it showed a fat Hal Jordon in costume
Haque - 11/22/2009, 4:10 PM
the word "DARK" does not mean dark tone like Batman. when directors and produces are saying Superman needs to be dark they mean more gritter then before.
jazzman - 11/22/2009, 4:11 PM
@Rorschach01

I don't see the neon bs and nipple suits helping B&R, hell no. Am I on board of this idea? Hell No. B&R suffered more from the camp way the material was handled more than the dressing. That is the very thing DC Entertainment is police-ing for in thier current role. What would a film by dear ol' Joel be like minus those things? Thats the only thing I am pondering. Beyond that, its a terrible idea and don't blame the flames for it.

Singer would have a home run with me in SR if he had not had the arrogance of trying to add to the Superman legend with the Estranged Father and lack of moral compass in Superman's responsibilties to Earth and friends. The suit changing was another self indugance for Singer. We are now in a modern film creating world and can achieve much much more than what Donner's time had. The public and fans were cheated out of seeing the next big story and instead had a rehash of past plot with an uncharateristic twist thrown in.

I agree Zack Snyder is too dark. Dick Donner is mostly retired probably. Michael Bay would loose his story in the string of action scenes. Most directors in business too closely identify with Marvel's characters with all thier personal quirks and issues. Very few get (or "just not into") Superman from the persective of the origin he comes from. There are not that many folks that understand the farm life and family that influances his moral.

Does Schumacher get Superman? Probably as much as Singer does.
JYCowboy - 11/22/2009, 4:13 PM
InTylerWeTrust- I never compared superman to the dark
knight, look at superman returns with
no undertone what so ever, no action,
and barely a story, look how well that
turned out! ohh and LEX LUTHOR AGAIN!!
come on, we've seen the same superman
story six times over, lets move in a new
direction!
peterparker420 - 11/22/2009, 4:16 PM
OK, here another idea. How about Superman produced by Steven Spielberg and directed by JJ Abrams? You could have the care and attention of two top film making teams. I just don't think these two Paramount directors would break away to work for Warners, however.
JYCowboy - 11/22/2009, 4:19 PM
Couple quick points:
They were talking about the 1989 Punisher movie sucking, not the Thomas Jayne flick.
Watchmen kicked arse!
The Green Lantern fan trailer was cool.
Why can't people stop trying to "reinvent" the characters? The comics/characters work for a reason.
Thank all that is good that the Tim Burton Superman was never made.

rook187 - 11/22/2009, 4:26 PM
peterparker: I didn't say you were actually comparing it to TDK, I was pointing out how there's been sudden surge of people wanting more CBM's to be dark after TDK.

You don't need a dark undertone to have action or a good story. Spider-Man 1/2 are proof of that. Singer and the script were the cause of no action or not a very good story, not that it didn't have a dark undertone. That was the one big problem with Returns, a shoddy script and a director that mishandled the character badly. The tone was pretty much perfect for a Superman movie.

I agree with Luthor not being the main villain, and I never mentioned that at all in my comment.

A dark undertone is not required for a good Superman movies. A good script with a competent director who can make Superman actually feel like a true, pure beacon of justice, which Superman is, are needed.
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/22/2009, 4:26 PM
InTylerWeTrust- I see what you are saying and I agree
singer is the cause of the superman
crash. and yes spidey 1/2 were great
with no dark undertone, I just can't see
Abrams directing superman (even thought
STAR TREK WAS EPIC) Snyder could make
a great superman movie without it being
to violent(dark) he is the kind of guy
who sticks to making a great film.
directly converting a comic to film
(watchmen, 300) page for page. abrams
might go completely oppisite of that
and that makes me nervouse.
peterparker420 - 11/22/2009, 4:36 PM
I WANT SNYDER TO DIRECT THIS!!
peterparker420 - 11/22/2009, 4:38 PM
But how do you know Snyder wouldn't go too dark or violent? All his major films have been totally gory, mature, graphic, etc.

The only Superman movie Snyder should direct is Doomsday, but that shouldn't happen until at least 2 Superman movies.

As long as Abrams doesn't write the script, he is the best choice by far for a Superman reboot.
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/22/2009, 4:44 PM
in order to have the superman you want he needs to be killed off by DOOMSDAY(Snyder). Snyder would make
Superman: DOOMSDAY and then we can have,
Superman: REBORN (Abrams)
peterparker420 - 11/22/2009, 4:49 PM
PP @ Me too dude!!!

SNYDER to direct the next SUPERMAN movie....

DOOMSDAY!!!



Hell Yeah!!! ; D
LEEE777 - 11/22/2009, 4:52 PM
But their is a huge difference between successfully adapting a self contained story like 300 or Watchmen, and successfully bringing together years of stories, writers, arcs ..to make a Superman movie. Someone is always going to be disappointed when a movie is made based on a character but not a particular graphic novel or story. They use Doomsday..someone cries cos they wanted Brainiac..they use Brainiac, someones pissed off that they didn't get a big screen Darkseid. You can't please everyone. Thats why movies like SR will always polarize fans. personally, I would have liked something for him to punch but I still really like dthe tone and flow of the movie and there were some epic scenes. Everyone gets so focused on the things Singer did wrong that they refuse to acknowledge the things he did right.

Anyway, I promised I would stop defending that movie about 5 times now! It would be nice to have a complete CBM chart..with stuff like Sin City and Ghost world..be a frakkin big chart though!
RorMachine - 11/22/2009, 4:53 PM
Damn, cant read that picture up top???

Damn it sucks being on a notepad! : D

BRAINIAC's a lame villain lol!

LEEE777 - 11/22/2009, 4:54 PM
The Superman film I want is a reboot, a new continuity which starts with a quick recap of his origin, then goes into his Superman career. Brainiac as the main villain. Lex would be in the background, as a supporting character. Nowhere in there would Doomsday make an appearance.

It makes literally no sense to restart the franchise by killing off the title character. Not to mention Doomsday blows chunks as a villain, or character.
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/22/2009, 4:55 PM
TYLER @ Blah blah blah.....


Blah blah blah!

: D
LEEE777 - 11/22/2009, 4:56 PM
This is the superman story I want
Photobucket
this from WIKIPEDIA, (sorry about the length)
The story opens with Superman struggling with the fact that he could not save all the people that were caught in The Vanishing. He visits Father Leone, a priest suffering from cancer, in his church. Superman tells him how he was in outer space saving Green Lantern Kyle Rayner when The Vanishing occurred, outlining his feelings of guilt as he feels he abandoned Earth when it needed him most.

This is a first of several 'confessionals' between Superman and Father Leone. At their next encounter, Superman explains how he traced the source of The Vanishing to an unnamed foreign country in the Middle East. In the midst of a war, Superman removes from one side all of their weapons; on the other he faces General Nox, a military leader intent on taking over the country. Nox refuses to stand down and, along with his super-powered minion Equus, fights against Superman's interference. Equus is injured and, in a last-ditch attempt to escape, activates the Vanishing Device, creating a second "Vanishing", which vanishes himself, General Nox and 300,000 more inhabitants of Earth. This leads to Superman having to face the anger of the public and the JLA.

Taking control of the Vanishing Device, Superman and Father Leone travel to the Fortress of Solitude, where they try to perfect the device so that Superman can vanish himself to discover where the other people were taken. Before he gets a chance to do so, he is confronted by Wonder Woman, who attempts to stop Superman from carrying out his plan. She believes Superman's efforts are an attempt to commit suicide. The Fortress of Solitude is also visited by Mr. Orr, who tracked Father Leone via a painkilling injection Orr administered earlier. Orr is a mercenary who is working for a mysterious group of powerful individuals described by Orr himself as having "80% of the world population working for them in one way or another." Superman fights Wonder Woman and then tells her that the Fortress is set to self-destruct. He also asks her to save Mr. Orr and Father Leone. Moments before the Fortress explodes, he vanishes himself, transporting him to Metropia, the paradise world he had created in the Phantom Zone.

In Metropia, Superman is reunited with Lois Lane. He also learns of General Zod's existence in Metropia. It turns out that it was this Zod who was behind The Vanishing, as he was trying to build an empire in Metropia. The robots that Superman built attack Zod, Equus, who is now working for Zod, and Zod's other followers. The robots are destroyed, which prompts Superman to attack, defeating Equus and Zod. He transports everyone back to Earth and destroys Metropia. During the last moments of the alternate world, Superman tries to help Zod by saving his life, which the latter refuses to allow.

As this is occurring, it is shown that Mr. Orr has talked to Father Leone about Superman. Mr. Orr has learned of Father Leone's cancer and says that he can cure him. The "cure" actually turns out to be a horrific biological experiment that transforms him into an enhanced version of Equus, called Pilate. Upon his return to Earth, Superman has to confront the Father Leone version of Equus. Disgusted at what he has become, he asks Superman to kill him. Horrified at this request, Superman refuses to do so. As Leone continues to argue with him, a recovered Equus attacks, probably thinking that Father Leone, a construct like himself will help him in fighting Superman. Father Leone, however, in a last act of desperation, lunges at Equus, driving them both into a fiery nova in the background, which transports them to an island where they continue to fight. Lois and all the others that disappeared in The Vanishing return to Earth, but their memories of what happened have been erased from their minds.

Having restored the victims of The Vanishing, Superman has saved the day again. He proceeds to construct a new Fortress of Solitude in the midst of a 'jungle'. Reminiscing about the events, he asks himself, while he has saved countless millions of lives over the years, who will save him when the end comes. With these threads tied, the story ends, however, the issues of Mr. Orr and the mysterious organization are left unresolved.

[edit]
peterparker420 - 11/22/2009, 5:00 PM
on firstshowing.net they had a private interview with James McTeigue about his new movie Ninja Assassin plus they asked him about what is going on with the Superman movie at WB heres the link below

http://www.firstshowing.net/2009/11/20/video-interview-ninja-assassin-director-james-mcteigue/#comments
jazzman - 11/22/2009, 5:10 PM
For Superman I think they should use Braniac. Braniac is a global threat and this could really show Superman's evolution from farm boy to the Protector of humanity. Alot of responsibility for someone from such humble beginnings in Smallville.
MidKnight35 - 11/22/2009, 5:10 PM
MidKnight: Thank you. Brainiac not only offers more than a physical threat for Supes, but he offers an intellectual threat as well. He's the whole package.

It seems that a lot of people only want an epic 3 hour fight scene, which really bothers me.

InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/22/2009, 5:14 PM
guys, what about bizarro?!


RockNRollCC - 11/22/2009, 5:40 PM
Brainiac ftw......ppl thought Joker was a lame villian becuz he has no powers and is just blehhh....but look what happened in TDK.
Kes - 11/22/2009, 5:57 PM
so i saw twilight this evening. The headache is strong in me.
MsKyle08 - 11/22/2009, 6:33 PM
Im not sure anyone thought The Joker was lame..and if they did, Id be very curious as to why!

Brainiac is the way to go mos def.

Mskyle, what possessed ya!
RorMachine - 11/22/2009, 6:43 PM
Hancock doesn't count, I rather see Will Smith as the black Green Lantern than Hancock 2
brazilianbatman - 11/22/2009, 6:47 PM
Superman is not the only who needs to get darker, Spiderman movies needs to grow up too
brazilianbatman - 11/22/2009, 6:56 PM
I don't think anyone thought Joker was a lame villain at all, he's always been Batman's most iconic villain, and one of the most iconic characters of all comic books.

But Brainiac actually has powers.

This is what needs to happen in the next Superman movie:

InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/22/2009, 7:03 PM
i dunnoooo Ror...i need to sleep for a week. maybe when i wake up i wont remember that horrible movie.
MsKyle08 - 11/22/2009, 7:08 PM
tyler, i am entirely wit u on this one. I think Abrams would be perfect for the next Superman movie,and brainiac would be amazing to see on the big scree. They need someone who can fight supes both physically and mentally, and there could be some amazing things done with him!

And Routh has to come bak!

woo hoo!
jallanr - 11/22/2009, 7:14 PM
i still wanna see this guy on the big screen someday, though:)




woo hoo!
jallanr - 11/22/2009, 7:21 PM
@ torched

yeah, you know they're going to put lex luthor in. for some reason, no one will make a superman movie without lex. but bizarro would work fine, it would be a way to keep lex in the movie, he can create bizarro so we can have an actual fight!!!

but i still want brainiac before all else.
CorndogBurglar - 11/22/2009, 7:24 PM
zach snyder was awesome for 300 and watchmen, but those are very different movies. its one thing for him to make a movie exactly like the comics when there's only one story pertaining to the characters. making a movie about a character with 70 years of backstory and continuity is something completely different.

everyone mentions zach snyder every single time a superhero movie is getting made. like he's some kind of god-like CBM director. but i guarantee he'd face the same problems as every other director when trying to adapt a character with that long of a history.

so don't go starting any cults of followers just yet, Ozy, you psycho. someone literally says zach snyder EVERY TIME a new CBM is getting made. it doesn't matter what character its about.
CorndogBurglar - 11/22/2009, 7:30 PM
Lex is an essential character of Superman's IMO, or, as a matter of fact, the entire DC universe. A Superman movie without Lexxy would feel just incomplete to me.

Of course he shouldn't be the main villain, but he needs to be there.

Corndog: Amen to that about Snyder, I agree with every point you made.

I've heard a suggestion of Zack Snyder for Fantastic Four once! No words describe how I feel about that suggestion...
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/22/2009, 7:32 PM
i think jj abrams for superman, i mean look what he did for star trek plus next superman movie badguys, brainiac and lex then possibly doomsday.
ukboy28 - 11/22/2009, 8:17 PM
With Batman doing the "realism" thing, I say send Supes to space (Darkseid) or give him zombies (Solomon Grundy). I'm sorry but Snyder's not all that great IMO. It wasn't horrible, but the worst parts of Watchmen are the parts he included. He does well with visuals, but not so much with character or story.

@CDB: Right on man! He's only done a zombie remake and two one-shot comic adaptions. 300 was the most entertaining of the 3.
Upupandaway - 11/23/2009, 12:13 AM
I'm going to assume that the "first time pop music is featured in a movie" thing is strictly for comic book movies because Top Gun was loaded with pop music and that was back in '86. I'd also like to see this kid's homework because he/she comes off as a DC fanboy who skimmed through Imdb.

How is 1989's Punisher #1 for biggest bombs? It was decent for its time and budget and was plagued by circumstance within the business. I still maintain that Dolph's interpretation of The Punisher was the better of the three attempts. It was the right amount of "dark" and his character's outlook/attitude was closer to the comics than the current attempts. The movie itself had good action and the story had a good pace. It doesn't deserve to be called a bomb because it didn't really fail. A $9 million dollar budget without an American theater release, it did alright.

Ridley Scott, I think, could do a decent Superman movie.
WeaponX - 11/23/2009, 2:41 AM
Zack Snyder is only good if you want to "watch the graphic novel" he doesnt bring much new to the story which is why I liked the Dark Knight because it didnt follow a story arc from the comics. Begins worked well as well because it took elements from year one and expanded.
breakUbatman - 11/23/2009, 3:24 AM
I'm Surprise as well that the Catwoman movie, and the Superman part 2,3,4, and returns didn't make that bomb list, but I'm very surprise Batman and Robin, and Batman Returns never made that list at all. Thinking about that chart now it should've been a top 20 bomb list. lol If you add the 2 Captain America movies from the 70's and the remake Captain America movie in 1990.
TDKR11 - 11/23/2009, 4:21 AM
@ intyler

lol, yeah man, he wouldn't be right for FF either. i'm not saying i wouldn't like to see snyder take a stab at another CBM, but seriously, can we stop throwing his name at every character that gets a movie?? please? FF, Superman, Batman, X-men, Avengers, thor, cap, i'm sorry, the guy is a great director, but NO ONE is fit to make ALL those movies.
CorndogBurglar - 11/23/2009, 4:51 AM
Where's Tank Girl lol :P
teabag - 11/23/2009, 6:27 AM
Doomsday would be an ok villain if you want nothing more than one long CGI fight scene but I'd prefer a villain who's a little more interesting!

Besides what would be the point of rebooting the franchise (which after Singer's nostalgic crap in Returns is a must) only to then kill Superman off!?!
JoshW - 11/23/2009, 7:42 AM
Zack Snyder is the ONLY directer who stays TRUE to the
story/arc/graphic novel he is adapting for a movie,
I would like to see anyone name another director, who stayed TRUE to the characters like snyder does, every other director goes off on some wild tangent, when it comes to a CBM, like the origanal story from the comicbook isn't good enough, or other directors
change the costume's sround:
(ex. x-men costume's, green goblin costume, ect..)
I'm just saying if zack snyder directed superman he would stay TRUE to the character and story he was useing.
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 8:56 AM
I can name you several that stayed true to the characters..not so many that remained true to the story arcs, but again, i reiterate, their is a HUGE difference between adapting a self contained story like Watchmen and pasting together a narrative from dozens of comic stories, writers etc. Also, Snyder changed quite a bit from the Watchmen GN! He made it work, but no director is 100% faithful..they would have to make a motion comic to be.
RorMachine - 11/23/2009, 9:57 AM
@peterparker420: First off, Donner stayed very true to the character of Superman in the first film. Fav stayed true to the character of Iron Man. Robert Rodriguez, also, did a wonderful job with Sin City. For a character like Superman with so much history, the true nature of the character is subjective. To me, the Watchmen movie wasn't presented in the way I read the book because it focused more on the action elements. If people are going to give me little more than an action comic, I'll save my money and read the books. While I don't like some of the liberties that they have taken with some movies, we need to recognize that movies can do things comics can't do and that comics can do things that movies can't do, but both compliment each other as well. Staying true to a character is less about getting the costume right but about making great stories about the characters we know and love. *Jumps off of soapbox*
Upupandaway - 11/23/2009, 10:04 AM
With the Punisher not having any powers and just guns, knives etc... you would think that he'd be easy to recreate on the screen. The fact he's done so bad means he deserves justice. Give it some time and get him a legit reboot. Couldn't believe how bad they were, and for no reason...just no one cared...not even Marvel as shown by War Zone...
continuezero - 11/23/2009, 10:38 AM
OK now we got a debate!!

Upupandaway- OK so i forgot about Sin City and I can't
believe I did!
(It is one on my favorite movies)
and good call on Iron man I love FAV!
but watchmen is not just about action
actually it is not at all about action.
Snyder only used action scenes when it
was time to use action scenes, when it
was at the parts in the story that called
for an action scene. Watchmen is very much
about character development.
(ex. niteowl) he goes from retirement
all the way to hero and back again.
(ex.2 Rorschach) we see how he came to
be and everthing in between. so in my
opinion watchmen was only about the
characters and story and not so much
about the action.

you say-
"Staying true to a character is less about getting the costume right but about making great stories about the characters we know and love."

so you don't want deadpool to be in full costume? when the new movie comes out?

Ror- you are right Snyder was not fully 100% he didn't
use the giant squid at the end. and yes there IS
a huge difference between adapting a self
contained story and pasting together a narrative
from dozens of comic stories, but don't you want
the director's to pick an arch or graphic novel
and stick to that instead of going way outside
the original premiss. spider-man 1..great
spider-man 2 even better, spider-man 3..WTF!?
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 11:01 AM
if costumes aren't a big issue then why does everyone complain about them? When they are not right

how did they go from this (classic)
Photobucket

to this (monstrocity)
Photobucket

*and yes i know about the Grant Morrison run*
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 11:08 AM
@ peterparker

you're missing my point. i'm saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow a story 100% when you're dealing with characters with over 70 years of history...unless you're going to adapt something like The Dark Knight Returns, which in essence, IS a self contained story taht takes place out of continuity. NO DIRECTOR in the world can make a movie of the dark phoenix saga, for instance. thats the point i'm making. every comic story builds on what came before, and with a movie franchise, you just can't show everything that happened in the comics. so things will ALWAYS be left out/changed in order to make the story work on film. unless of course, the movie you are making is something like watchmen or 300, thats a single story with no continuity built for the characters other than what is told in the one story.
CorndogBurglar - 11/23/2009, 11:29 AM
@ peterparker

and costumes are just the look of the character, they have no effect on what a character does, or how they act, none whatsoever. which is why costumes have never meant all that much to me when they change in movies.
CorndogBurglar - 11/23/2009, 11:31 AM
@peterparker420: About the costumes, I'm just saying that a great costume doesn't supplant the need for good characters. I would love to see Deadpool in full costume, but not if they're going to make a crap movie. For Watchmen, the two characters you mentioned were done really well, but they were very much in their own worlds and the interactions didn't seem believable. Watchmen is also a story about the fear that the world is going end and a mystery. Both of these elements weren't really used to great effect IMO. The overlong fight scenes and goofy, out of place and overlong sex scene didn't help. The scenes that I enjoyed were ripped directly out of the comic and just made me wish that I was reading the book even more. To me it was like wearing to different shades of black. It's similar, but it just doesn't match. I did, however, appreciated the love Snyder had for the subject matter. His love just wasn't the same as mine. I don't want people to bastardize the source material but to show me something that comics can't.
Upupandaway - 11/23/2009, 11:45 AM
CorndogBurglar- but that is my point, directors should
pick a story arc, and stick to that
story alone like:
spider: new ways to die is a six
issue mini series, stick to that story
for spidey 4, 5, 6, and it would be
a mind shattering movie! they won't
but it was just an example.

Photobucket

and come on, costumes don't matter..really?
I don't belive that for a second! (LOL)
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 11:58 AM
Upupandaway- I really do understand what you are saying,
but remember when you saw Sin City for the
first time how great that experiance was,
It was a groundbreaking movie! it was
faithfull to the graphic novels and yet
different all at the same time. that is
all i want with every CBM, I want to
say "WOW this is just like the comic!"
but yet I want to say "I've never seen
that before!"
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 12:17 PM
Im not pushed about the costumes as long as they get the character right and have some semblance of recognizability. Wolvie was an exception, that yellow get up is [frick]ing suicide for the screen. I totally understand why they altered it.

As for the stories, yes it would be great id they chose one arc and ran with it but its never going to happen. The studio hires a writer and says.."Write me a Superman/Batman/Whatever movie." The screen writer goes off and reads through the history and picks and chooses elements he likes, jettisons the stuff he doesn't and in some cases, makes up an entirely new story using the character and maybe similar parts for his origin and what not.
RorMachine - 11/23/2009, 12:18 PM
Sticking to one story alone is kind of short-sighted to me. Why not bring together several different aspects of several different storylines and bring them together to make a great new one?

Why should the director be confined to one storyline? That's too restricted and limited.

Also, as long as the characters retain a faithfulness to their comic-book counterparts in personality, actions, etc. then costumes shouldn't be the end-all be-all.
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 12:23 PM
how is it short sighted, don't we want a continuing
story line for these movies? I don't like when these movies jump around to much, iron man is going to continue the overall story into iron man 2 its not going to jump right into, lets say civil war. it makes sense to do whiplash/black widow in this next movie. but to jump right to venom in SM3 after he just defeated doc ock
made no sense to me, and how does mary jane come before
gwen stacy?, it is just all these little things in these movies that add up over time, and then we get to the point where we all say "we want a reboot!"
that reboot would never needed to happen if the writes/directors chose an story arc and stuck with it.
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 12:45 PM
You're going off into extremities with the "going from IM 2 to Civil War" thing. So if they don't stick to only one storyline, then they will go off in a total 180 degree turn into a completely different storyline?

I don't want to see one storyline for a bunch of movies, that could get repetitive fast. Also, if it is constricted to only one storyline, where is the surprise or originality in that? If you know the entire storyline of one of the events of the comics, wouldn't you know exactly how that movie would play out? It leaves no creative room for the writers, directors, etc. It would just feel too segmented for me.

And how did jumping to Venom after Doc Ock not make sense? I'm not defending the movie, but how does it not make sense?
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 12:52 PM
it didn't make sense beacause it was a villian overload
it should of been sandman and goblin 2 (harry)only and at the end of the movie the astroid should of came down,
we see the sybiote moving and then end credits, venom
should of had spider-man 4 all to himself and at the end of that one hint at carnage,
(all a continuing storyline) it will be one storyline but add a bunch of cameos in betwwen all of that, like the vulture/rino/ electro..ect.)
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 1:24 PM
Now, THAT doesn't make sense. The way you just described it, that is a valid argument. I agree with it.

But I doubt that Venom could hold an entire 2-hour movie as the only villain. It's possible I guess, but I don't see it working out.

I think I'm understanding your point better. I assumed that you were talking about sticking to one story from the comics at a time, not mixing other elements from other storylines together and being totally like the comic book story. Now I see that you mean that the storyline that they come up with for the movies should flow together, and have a steady continuity. Now, that is definttely agreeable in my book. I have my own outlines/plots for DC films (particularly Superman/Justice League) and I would say I have steady continuity, with a good flow and transitions.

I apologize if I misunderstood your points like I think I did :)
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 1:33 PM
NO apology nessicary! (LOL)
sorry sometimes i have trouble getting my point
across! I just want the overall stories to flow together,and have a continuity, like they do in comics
after you read a comic and it says TO BE CONTINUED...
I just want the same feel. i feel bad for spidey 3
at the end, they kind of left it there with no
continuity at all, and with no where to go (story wise)

so spidey 4 is kind of up in the air which could be
a good thing.. or a very bad thing!(LOL)


WOW what a good debate!
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 1:45 PM
Yep, Spider-Sh*t 3 was all over the place. The next logical step for the franchise would be Lizard and Kraven IMO, but it already seems they're f*cking that dream up with rumors of Black Cat and Vulture.
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 1:52 PM
I'm in total agreement with you on this,
black cat would of been nice (but they already
F***ked it up) so that story wouldn't of worked anyways!

The lizard is the only logical choice since they set
up curt conners way back in spidey 2.
(he should of been in spidey 3 but lets not go there)LOL!

The lizard and kraven is the only SURE CHOICE!!
peterparker420 - 11/23/2009, 2:06 PM
Personally, I can't stand Black Cat as a character.

But yeah, Lizard and Kraven are the best way for Raimi to redeem himself.
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 2:08 PM
@ peterparker

okay, now i also see what you're saying, and like tyler, i find it agreeable. but if you look at the xmen franchise, that is basically what they did. the first movie was kind of an intro to the series, which established magneto as a villain, and then ended it with his foreboding words of what the human race will do, and the coming war between humans and mutants. the 2nd picked up right from there, and ended on a cliff hanger of jean dying, and we saw the phoenix symbol in the water. (much like how you describe venom crashing to earth at what should have been the end of spidey 3. i agree, venom should have had his own spidey movie. he's one of the only people that spidey is actually afraid of) the 3rd, though executed terribly, picked up from there. it was a trilogy that built pretty well on the films that came before it. i get it, man. i see what you mean. and i agree totally.

but to get back to the roots of the discussion, those xmen movies didn't have zach snyder directing them, yet they did exactly what you just described. which makes my point a little more agreeable also, that zach snyder isn't necessary. all we've seen him do with CBMs are put nearly scene for scene from a single story with characters that only exist in that one story, and put them into a movie. to me, he is just as unproven as anyone else.

it would be a totally different thing to do a movie like you're talking about. in new ways to die, there are already characters in it that have been established beforehand. those characters WOULDN'T be established in the movie franchise. so you would either be forced to leave them out, or put them in with no introduction, therefore things would need to be changed. hollywood isn't going to make movies that aren't accessible to everyone, so us comic nerds might know all about these characters, but average joe movie goer isn't, which would take away from the movie for them. so i stand by what i said, snyder would have just as hard a time making a movie about an established character with a lot of continuity as any other director. ANY director can pick up a 300 graphic novel and put every single scene on film, which is pretty much what snyder did. not that i didn't like it mind you :)

and yeah, good discussion man!
CorndogBurglar - 11/23/2009, 3:54 PM
@CDB,Parker420, & Tyler: I agree and good discussion. Ultimately, it all comes down to taste and what you like. I do think Snyder would be a great director for a Nextwave movie. The book comes with a theme song. It should be a movie.

And to continue from a previous discussion, Darkseid for the a new Superman movie. He's got the brains and brawn.
Upupandaway - 11/23/2009, 4:40 PM
@ upupandaway

dude, i thought i was the only person in the world that read Nextwave!!!!!!! god i loved that series, it was so damn funny, lmao!!! i was heartbroken when i went and picked up my comics one week and right there on the cover it said...Last Issue. hahaha, Captain #%&$ was the man!

and i think darkseid should be in a JLA movie :)
CorndogBurglar - 11/23/2009, 4:57 PM
I say save Darkseid for Justice League. Build up to a Darkseid invasion of Earth with Apokolips at his side, and you got one epic movie on your hands :)
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 5:25 PM
That avatar of yours MisterUnderhill makes me pretty much disregard what you say about Routh.... ;)
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 6:03 PM
Im enjoying how this topic is about Superhero movies in general but it switched to Topics about a new Superman Movie Haha...

@InTylerWeTrust82, Touche' on our last Debate. All Facepalms aside haha I agree w/ you on THIS topic.
I just got through watching The Star Trek DVD & Shit, given a great Script by none other than GEOFF JOHNS based on his SUPERMAN/BRAINIAC w/ Gary Frank's Art, JJ Abrams is THE GUY to direct a Superman Reboot!
JonathanisMagnum1985 - 11/23/2009, 7:04 PM
@Tyler and CDB: Because I have no faith that the JLA movie will ever be made, I would like to put Darkseid in a Superman movie. He's too good of a villain to be wasted. : ) I'm not saying that he wouldn't work for JLA, just that I don't think it will be made in the near future.
Upupandaway - 11/23/2009, 7:23 PM
Upupandaway: If there isn't a JL film made ever, then Darkseid for the sequel to the reboot. He would up the ante if he was put after Brainiac I think. I don't want to put Superman's biggest villain straight in there though.

Jonathan: Yep, a Geoff Johns Superman script, directed by JJ Abrams with Brainiac would make my head explode from sheer awesomeness!
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 7:29 PM
@Tyler: Can I at least have Darkseid pulling the strings during the events of the first film? Please! : )
Upupandaway - 11/23/2009, 7:33 PM
Upupandaway: Totally man, that would be a great way to set him up for the future in my mind.

My ideal reboot would be, of course, Brainiac as the main villain, but a sub-plot running through the film showing a dark figure on a throne hinting at plans or something and then the end reveals it's Darkseid, bam! Set up for Apokolips invasion!
InTylerWeTrust82 - 11/23/2009, 7:35 PM
yeah, i could settle for darkseid if i knew there would never be a JLA movie. but i just have a feeling that he would be too watered down. darkseid is like the most powerful being in DC. (i know there are others, but as far as someone that supes would fight, he is the man) i can't see them making him look like the threat he is unless it took the whole JLA to beat him. and yes, i know superman has beaten him one on one, but come on, it would be nice to see supes fight someone that he can't beat alone.

i think brainiac needs to be the villain. but you KNOW lex will be there, so lex creating bizarro could be a good way to introduce a new franchise. then brainiac in a sequel, then darkseid in the 3rd (if no JLA gets made of course).
CorndogBurglar - 11/23/2009, 8:00 PM
I'm all for a Superman reboot! Has anyone heard any other news regarding James McTeigue and his interest in a new Superman movie?
Banner123 - 11/24/2009, 10:43 AM
CorndogBurglar- I agree with you x-men did have a continuity to it. you're right. (and i know people don't
agree with me) but i really wish the x-men wore the origanal costumes in the movies ( and I know costume dont nessicarily make the character) but if it was done right it would of looked awesome on the big sreen.

Photobucket

that is all i want, would those costumes really look that bad on the big screen? a full costume worked for Spidey,
DareDevil(bad movie good costume)Ironman, Batman,

I mean the x-men don't have to wear it the whole time just when they go to fight. That is why I can't wait for deadpool, Green Lantern, cause how much you wanna bet they get the costume right!..the costume dosen't make the hero but adds to the hero.

but I understand what you are saying, they have to make these movies somewhat watered down for GENERAL audiances
to understand what is going on and to understand these characters they are useing. but if it's a great script and great characters shouldn't the film makers be able to use anyone as long as they explain who the characters are in the movie?

Ex. green lantern, I'm sure alot of GENRAL people don't know who Kilowog is and who Abin-sur is. but im pretty sure that they are going to be in the movie cause Abin-sur gave Hal the ring and Kilowog trains him on Oa.
peterparker420 - 11/24/2009, 12:28 PM
@ peterparker

i don't know man, bright yellow spandex is pretty ridiculous looking in real life, just go to walmart, lol. its hard to look tough in that! daredevil's costume was just a leather suit, and that did look pretty good, i just didn't like how you could see his neck. it made his mask look weird to me. and spidey kind of makes sense to have a costume like that, because he's just some kid that made it by himself at home, though in the movie it also looked very good.

to me, it just makes sense for the xmen to wear black leather. they went through a long run in the comics with black leather costumes in fact. they aren't a team thats in the spotlight, they do more undercover type things, so the leather, non-flashy superhero costumes just made a little more sense for them.

now if the avengers had all black leather costumes, then i'd have a problem with that.
CorndogBurglar - 11/25/2009, 12:09 AM

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